After what happened to Fabrice Muamba I have seen many messages and mention of prayers for Muamba. It made me wonder, how many of the people saying their prayers for Muamba actually believe in God ? Is it a primal reaction to something bad happening that people - even non believers - turn to God in their or a moment of need ? For all the talk of religion being so bad by what seems to be the majority of people - Religion/God seems to be a dirty word for many (not me I hasten to add) - so many during this sad period seem to turn to God. If this is the case .. its a shame that its only when something bad happens that God is remembered. Actually - on a side note, something that Essou Ekotto said, was its sad that its only when something as tragic as this happens, the humility and kindness of people/fans comes through. Clearly the good and the bad in football, vile chants on the one hand, togetherness in prayer on the other.
Well If Muamba pulls through it will have been humans that have saved him, not god. It will have been his internal strength, the medics quick response, and the doctors at the London Chest Hospital that will return Muamba to health, not god. Within that though, the idea or thought of prayer doesn't nessercarily have to be intertwined with religion. It could be a prayer that they hope the people responsible for his care aren't incompetent or make a mistake.
Thing is, when something like #prayformuamba is trending on twitter people who think prayers are silly (like me) wouldn't want to be the party poopers by commenting on it, because most of the people who do say that do with good intentions. It left a bad taste on me to be honest. He is alive (and hopefully will get better) because of a very early reaction and excellent medical treatment. And it seems to have been the case here because both the Muambas and Coyle are religious and they've publicly asked for prayers...
I don't think prayer and religion need to necessarily be entwined or mutually exclusive. What some people call God, others would describe as collective consciousness in a Jungian context. There is a secular description of the power of many people focusing on an outcome, otherwise known as prayer. Does it work ? Yes, you can argue that it does, on a surface level there are plenty of examples of people reporting that it was the knowledge of lots of people 'rooting' for them that spurred on a favourable outcome. This is likely also to run to a subconscious level within Jungian principals and you could extrapolate that this could be applied to someone unconscious or in a coma, where lots of people are 'praying' for them. This is probably the only time I'm ever going to talk about Carl Jung on a football forum Over to PNE to deconstruct this argument . . .
While not wishing to get into debate about 'is there a God?' or ' can we appeal to God for intervention?' - I do think that there are possibly 'powers' that we do not yet understand. There are many examples in nature where creatures appear to be able to be guided to survive where rationality says 'no they can't'. So no, I didn't actually pray for Muamba (for who to in my case?) , but I sure did 'hope and wish as strongly as I could' that he would survive and recover well. Que sera sera.
I've been amazed by how public the prayer thing has been. Right through to Real Madrid players wearing the shirts. Are all the people who have worn these shirts in public religious? Unlikely. But this is the first time I can remember so much talk with a religious context taking place around football, though if you look at it, the amount of religious players is higher than I though. Those who cross themselves as they walk onto the pitch, or celebrate to God before the crowd with arms & face lifted etc. seems higher this season than before. I hope it makes a difference On the subject of the medics and his strength saved him, who's to know there wasn't divine intervention? Dr Deaner - a consultant cardiologist at the London Chest Hospital just happened to be at the game, and his intervention and expertise may have saved his life. One persons coincidence is anothers intervention. Incidentally, Kaka may be available in summer, but only on loan:
I completely disagree, I don't think anyone has exclusive rights to God..... Your piousness or religious fervour does not make God answer your prayers faster than someone who only cries to God ONLY in times of need. It does not really matter when you turn to God, the key thing is you have. I think it is heart warming to see players of different faiths praying to God for intervention, I did not really bother me if they attend church or not..... Or they were parcticing the faith.
Omogooner, this piousness of which you speak, I'm not sure where that came from but I can assure you it doesn't apply to me It is logical though, surely, that, if God is good enough/powerful enough to warrant being spoken to when times are bad, then conversely, he should be good enough to be remembered when times are good, no ? I kind of liken it to the friend that only contacts you when he wants something ....... But I'm not here to preach, I am not particularly religious, I have my beliefs, I don't follow a mantra or a dogma, each to their own.
@Hothead, Apologies for not making myself clear, I was not referring to you as being pious, what I meant was that a person's piousness does not give them better access..... I don't think God works in that way, i.e. makes a note of those who only contact Him in the time of need and marks them down......
Do all the people hoping to God that he pulls through, believe in God? No. Do all the people that say that they will pray for Muamba actually pray? No. There are lots of clichés being thrown around creating the atmosphere of faux religion, faux sincerity and faux grief, which I fail to believe helps Muamba in anyway.
Personally I am an Agnostic but I like the concept of Faith - It is always been religion that I have had a problem with. The concept of rules and regulations to abide by. Religion is something created by man (particularly Rich Powerful Men) which is why all religions have undertones of sexism, homophobia and a way for the ruling castes to rule the majority. But Faith is a lovely concept I envy those who have it. The concept of believing in something greater and Unknown (as long as it compels you to be a good person) it is the control over this by the powerful that I have an Issue with. I always believe faith will have a place until every question in the universe is answered (never). But in this case it is a case of the usual cliches being dragged up and the concept of when we are most scared and facing the unknown that faith/god is easier concept to fall back on for strength and belief. We see it in almost every situation in the world. Be it Muamba, national disaster, death, war, disease etc.
Does this mean if we all root for Arsenal they might end up winning/doing the quadruple next season? Maybe we should start praying already today!
This certainly used to be true - the Church killed the first few people who tried to translate the Bible from Latin into the common language as it would have destroyed the ability to tell people what they wanted to in order to maintain control. However, this certainly isn't the case any more. You can read what you want for yourself and make up your own mind - aided by thousands of books on every aspect of all different religions. Most religions have very few rules - see the 10 Commandments of Christianity, which boil down to: Love God, and be nice to each other - not particularly controlling really.
The dilution of the control religion has on people has to do with the invention of science and education and the empowerment of women in modern times. Also with the creation of Government and Law. The more we answer about the universe the more the need for "religion" dies out. The bible still states Homosexuality is against God and preached actively all over the world as does the Koran. Women are treated as second class citizens all over the world due to religion. It is our empowerment and education as a collective and as individuals that has reduced the hold of religion but the tenants of religion still hold mostly to values 1000's of years old (written by men). John Paul the 2nd, arguably the most liberal Pope still denounced Contraception (after being asked by Mandela to help prevent the spread of Aids in Africa) because a 2000 old year book told him to. In many cases the growth of freedom of religion is not due to the liberalisation of Religion but the lack of need in society for a higher power. The concept of reading and deciding how to express your faith is something I am 100% with you on BUT it comes from our own curiosity and attempts not because religions encourage it. That being said there are obviously exceptions to the rule.
Personally, I think the major issue is the way men twist religion for their own purposes, interpreting things in the wrong way - like the women being second class. I'd always encourage people to read, and learn, and make up their own minds, as some branches of all major relgions do. A lot of the problems come from giving people too much power, when in fact religion teaches you everyone is equal. Also, just because something is old doesn't mean you can't learn things from it. Please don't take that as me saying what JPII did was correct, but you shouldn't discount the value of older things - like Henry.
Fair enough many of our basic tenants and laws are based on religious ideologies most of the laws we have in place are based on religious teachings. Religion has a lot to offer society because most boil down to be a good person and live a good life. But in society that is constantly changing and evolving the rigidity enforced by religion sometimes makes it an archaic system. But I agree in the sense If a good person uses religion they can use it for great things. And if a bad man uses it will be used for evil. That is unfortunately true of everything. That all being said if religion didn't exist mankind would have fought all those wars over some reason or the other. War and the actions of terrorists will always be about Power and Land (wealth in any concept) - there is no and never has been any spiritual and rightful war.
Like I said, the concept of prayer need not be intrinsicly linked to Religion. You don't have to follow a religion or believe in God to be able to 'Pray' for a favourable outcome. I don't think there has been any faux sincerity at all. I think people have genuinly wanted and hope for the best for Muamba.
I think the concept of prayer is a fairly abstract one and the modern usage almost has it being a synonym for hope. Often the word prayer is used to demonstrate that the person is helpless to do anything practical to help , but still feels a need to show that they want to help. Also don't think you have to accept in the traditional view of god or religion in order to pray. You can just pray to nature, or pray because it makes you feel better, you don't have to think your prayer will be answered. I once knew an atheist who prayed. I asked him why, and he said, "I could be wrong. If I have the time, it can't hurt."
