- I know that based on past experience, bates can't be trusted at his word: no buyback of ER or TA, constantly sells best players despite assurances that it won't happen. - I know from past experience that the trumpeting of mediocrity is to try and hide the fact that the club has no plans to do anything better: see each time we get an average loan signing, the club plays it up as a "quality signing" only to have the player meet the expectations of mediocrity, or return to their parent club as per the rules of loan signings. As far as I'm concerned it all comes down to trust. If what has happened over the last 7 years hasn't convinced you that ken bates can't be trusted, I am left to question your opinion. If his business history on top of that still doesn't convince you that he can't be trusted, then I don't know what amount of "fact" you need to consider something proven. Anyone who claims "well there's no evidence to show that and we seem to be running in the black" has not taken the considered view, as the considered view would question why all business affairs are so hush hush on the official front, and why bates uses club business as a point of argument when he gets riled, of course without releasing the information to back it up. The considered view would take into account the man's trustworthiness and whether he can be taken at his word. I know enough about bates to know I can't trust his word until I see hard evidence to back up any claims he makes, none of which will ever be given, as his ego won't let him. Until I am given reason to trust him, it'll be bates out.
JLA, to be honest, I've never heard the case against Bates in full. Even if I did on this board, it would still only be one side of the story. Debate is essential to get to the root of the story, and let's face it - it's never going to happen. Why should Bates bother his backside? He doesn't need to. So I guess I'm always going to be in that awkward position where I can only form a view with the information available to me - like everyone else should be. Unfortunately, I find that there are some who form a view, present it as fact, and try to ram it down all our throats, vilifying anyone that doesn't agree. I wouldn't mind as much if this was occasional, but it's not - it's monotonously regular. Look at this thread, for instance. Started by a student asking a specific question. What percentage of the material posted on this thread is relevant to him. Very little. Just to be clear before I sign off - I am not a Bates lover. I will always be eternally grateful to him for saving our beloved club. That is fact. we're still here, and I'm still grateful. From that point on, there is a story waiting to be told which I for one am not privy to.
What does that really mean? Seems to mean very different things to do different people? If that is a reference to the "net income" amount on the income statement, is profit from player trading a great business measure/model to "be running in the black?" 5 rating from me for your above comment Marko!
Whitejock, I have no issue with you and like you, I can only go on what I have seen for myself. At the end of the day, I just look at what has happend at Leeds United since he arrived. As for "his saving us," that is a comment that he likes to brag about but there is no evidence of that and I have no idea what he supposedly saved us from.
JLA (or do you prefer Jonny?), re. him 'saving us', I take a very black & white view. We were about to go bust & needed someone to step in with cash. We heard loads of rumblings about monied 'fans' stepping in to save us. We're still waiting! Bates put his hand in his pocket. we're still here! End of, really. Personally, I suffered a wee bit more than most Leeds fans as my true love was Partick Thisle, and I'd already gone down the tortured 'gone bust' path. (Just to elicit a little more sympathy, if there's any about, I had both my clubs relegated in the one season, and at the same time, Scotland were sinking through the minor rankings with Berti Vogts at the helm - and you guys thought you had trouble with Sven et al!!! ).
I have been called much worse than JLA or Jonny, happy with either. ;-) The true story, as I understand it anyway, is that there was an investor group doing its due diligence when Ken Bates made an unconditional 10,000,000 pound offer. Krasner's groupp was so exhausted and stressed by their ownership that they just wanted out and took his offer. At the time of the administration years later, Krasner stated publicly that he deeply regretted accepting Bates' offer. Worst case scenario, the club would have gone into admin if the other grooup walked away. As was seen in admin later, there were many suitors. I had no trouble with Sven at all. I support the USA Men's National Team. It is too bad what has happened to the Scottish National Team. From Bremner thorugh Dalglish there have been some greats there during the 1970s and 1980s. Would be a great case study in what has caused this huge decline.
Nope I disagree. The way it went was that Bates was trying to lower expectations of fans which is understandable but not necessarily the right thing to do. He would have always had a shortlist of 2 or 3 in his head which I'd assume Warnock was in that shortlist. If they didn't go ahead then he would have to go for an option which isn't as good. Having lowered expectations of fans (or trying to because it didn't actually work in the end) it would have been easier to appoint a more disappointing option
There's too many questions surrounding the 'he saved us' stuff for me to completely agree with it. I'm not sure he did, but then I dont know what offers were on the table. He did step in when a lot of 'talking' was going on but not actually any investment. We still went into admin though although Bates does claim that Leeds were 1 day away from non-existance. Whether that is true or not is up to you but I'm not sure I've fully decided on that yet
Was this originally intended as a wind up? Rob McGrattan pronounced phonetically with a glottal stop actually reads as Rob my Gran! Whatever the OP's intention however it's produced a thread of great debate with reasoned argument on both sides. A very interesting read.
You basically just proved my point. They constantly try to lower expectations so they don't get so much backlash when they aspire to mediocrity time and time again.
So Rob, have you managed to make head or tail of any answer there yet? In summary, Ridsdale was an incompetent cad. And so is Bates.
we love peter prince ridsdale......he done a sterling job at barnsley,leeds,cardiff and plymouth......
But surely that is good chairmanning. Lowering expectations happens in every job all the time, for example if a player gets injured and gets assessed by a physio, maybe it'll take them 2 months to recover, he'll tell em it'll take 3 months to recover to lower expectations. Its not preparing for mediocrity its just if your plan A fails you still need to deliver something that will satisfy
Josh - that's been the basic mistake made by Bates. He has constantly dangled the Premierhsip in front of us, especially with his argument for high prices, and that is such a difficult game to play, as he is now finding out
You and Marko are both wrong as far as I see it. Bates promises promotion every season, not mediocrity, and never backs his manager sufficiently that we can achieve it, yet then blames them whenever things go tits up. That's why it's bad chairmanship. The congenital buck-passing. That and numerous other reasons which I've recounted countless times on here.
Over-promised and under-delivered for me: - we have brought the debt down and will be debt free by season end, - reacquiring Thorp Arch at the "bargain-purchase-option" is a top priority and the Delph money won't hurt, - we will not sell our best players, - there will be an explosion of activity in the transfer market, - pay Prem prices if you want Prem football (implication is that the club will charge high prices AND will deliver Prem football).
Add to that the old 'we are continuing to explore investment options' line, while Bates fruitlessly insults anyone who dares approach the club with as much as a fiver in their hand.
“They report back on June 30 and I think you will see an explosion of activity over the next month, so please sit tight. We have got a good management team, they are doing a good job." So 2 keepers in, Michael Brown on a free and Darren O'Dea in on loan was an explosion of activity that occurred before the opening match on August 6th? That sort of promise doesn't help and then when you head into the season with a worse squad/team than the previous season when you weren't good enough the 'Bates out' campaign begins. "We need to get promoted this year. Not financially but for the fans' sake. You mean for your sake Ken, because crowds are dropping because we have a mediocre team and sky high ticket prices. "I actually spoke to Simon Grayson about it after the Barnsley game. He reassured me that we were going to get promoted so I said to him, 'How come we're fifth then?' We'll see." No need to put the pressure on a manager who was overachieving with the squad that we had. Losing 2 players part of a solid midfield unit that were used to playing together in Johnson and Kilkenny for nothing and don't forget these players will have been on poor wages so Grayson could hardly replace them with class. Player of the year Gradel sold right at the end of the transfer window resulting in numerous players trying to replace him and probably a reduction in Snodgrass' effectiveness due to him being the sole threat on the wings. Bad luck in the forwards department with injuries to Somma and Becchio. Well Ken all i can say is you have really helped the manager and players this year by creating a real feel good factor around Elland Road by calling fans 'morons' and selling our captain and local lad in January because in reality Bates was never confident about promotion this season.
Hmm, yea I see that. he does promise promotion but for me its hard to say who's fault it is. Bates has not fully backed managers and I can see that. It would have made it a hell of a lot easier for us to get promotion by now if he did and I blame him for that however I think Grayson never had any pull for players to join him. Who says, I want to go to leeds united because Grayson is such a great manager and I think that was part of the problem also. My biggest issue with Bates and it always has been and I have always said it is the high ticket prices. But then in all other respects I have no issue with Ken Bates and I believe alot of people (not including Iqbal, I have seen how passionate he is about the subject) have issues with other aspects because of a) they do not fully understand or b) because they want excuses to hate the 'chelsea scum' or 'cockney twat' more
