Harrow I think we are on the same wave length - I'm the last person to defend religion - but I do think it is mans interpretations of religion that cause most of the problems - I think there are good parts of religion that tend to get forgotten by men so they can concentrate on their own interpretations. For instance I understand Jesus turned the other cheek and only really got angry at those trading money in the Temple. Similarly Buddah encouraged followers on a peaceful road to enlightenment and Mohammed (despite what the Mail might like to think) preached tolerance of all religions and charity. I'm not religious but all of that sounds good to me - what isn't good is the same people who attend Mosque on Fridays, Synagoge on Saturdays or Church on Sunday going out to trade weapons or invest in Countries that commit atrocities on Monday. Its the hypocracy of the religious people that ultimately turns me away from all religion. In my view they are as bad as each other and have been throughout history.
cologne, my best man ended up marrying a Jew and because of this, he had to go to the synagogue for a certain amount of time before the wedding and there were other various things he had to do before they could get married. I was at the wedding which was at Knebworth House about 7 or 8 years ago (I think) and it was in 2 parts: the civil ceremony and then the religious part. I'm sure H can fill in the gaps regarding the things he had to do. Other than that, I don't know if a non-Jew can become a Jew.
Disagree with that - what gets us into trouble is not the certainty in the detail of those who believe, it's their inability to stop shoving their beliefs down the throats of others, their inability to recognise that having those beliefs does not actually make them more important than anyone else in general society meaning that their voice has to be heard above everyone else's and their inability to realise that they actually could well be wrong. A religious belief is simply that - a religious belief. If you have one, fine - celebrate it in the appropriate place at the appropriate time and in the appropriate manner. Don't bother others with it and all will be well. End of rant.
"I have no objection to any person's religion, be it what it may, so long as that person does not kill or insult any other person, because that other person don't believe it also. But when a man's religion becomes really frantic; when it is a positive torment to him; and, in fine, makes this earth of ours an uncomfortable inn to lodge in; then I think it high time to take that individual aside and argue the point with him." HERMAN MELVILLE, Moby Dick
It's actually a course of learning. Someone converting to Judaism has to go through intensive learning, lots of visits to the synagogue and if they're a man...an operation that might make your eyes water thinking about it . Only people who really want to be Jewish would bother to be honest...but they end up knowing far more about Judaism than your average Jew...
Anybody listen to 5 Live this morning about the boy who was killed by his sister and uncle for 'being possessed by the devil'? Now tell me that this supersticious bollox is harmless.
Listened to it again. It kind of brings me back to a conviction that I have had that those who practice religion of any sort, with certainty over the stupid things that god has told them to wear, eat, screw, kill, etc etc (as if god, if he/she/it exists, would really give a flying one) fall into 3 categories: 1 (by far the most numerous) - those born into the faith and indoctrinated from an early age by family and friends 2 those who come to a religion at a time of personal crisis and seize on a religion (or are seized by it) - the lonely, the depressed, those addicted to drugs etc etc (a prime example is the unification church (moonies) but all religions take advantage of (or help according to your viewpoint) people at a low ebb 3 those, who after studying the 'evidence' come to the conclusion that a particular religion is the truth. These people are generally half-wits.
The problem arises that most people only get to an initial stage of religion which separates them from other groups and beliefs, ie. the other man's belief is then a contradiction to their own and, therefore dangerous. Truly religious people have transcended this stage : Gandhi described himself as simultaneously Hindu, Buddhist, Christian and Moslem - thereby being a living example of how the really religious see other religions as an extension of their own and not a contradiction. A well known Rabbi in London stated it beautifully when he said that only when a Christian recognizes the word of God through the mouth of a Moslem can he really call himself a Christian. A really religious person sees God in everything around him whatever it's appearance, a believer only believes, and that is a crucial difference a believer is essentially like a blind man who believes in light whereas a person who can see no longer needs belief, and ,all believers are blind.
God - yeah well in my view the Greeks and Romans had a clue - there are more than one -here'smy list - whcu can easily be added to- Luther Blissett Ross Jenkins Tony Coton Ian Bolton Graham Taylor Sean Dyche Mo Johnson John Barns Kenny Jackett Nigel Callaghan Wilf Rostran Steve Sherwood Andy Rankin Darius Henderson Pat Rice Kieth Eddy Stewart Scullion Barry Edean Tommy Mooney and then theres... Robert Plant Jimmy page John Paul jones John Bonham Mick Jagger Keith Richards Bruce Springsteen Carol King NeilYoung Jimi Hendrix Noddy Holder Mark Bolan Delius Marler Wagner Pucini Nelson Madela Karl Marx Howlin Wolf BB King Smokey Robinson Marvin Gaye My missus...
A lot of sense in yellowtoyou's post. Take a look at what the Greeks and Romans (and Egyptians) achieved with multiple gods; then look at the dark ages between the fall of the roman empire to the rennaissance where we went backwards under oppressive monotheistic religions. Even the Vikings did better than most with Thor, Odin et al.
Can we add Lloyd Doyley to the list ? Yes , the Greeks and Romans had some good ideas - when they conquered a nation they simply took over their God as well and added it to their own - simple really. Interesting to see Karl Marx on the list, and even further to note how often communism as an ideal life form is mentioned no less than 20 times in the Bible, furthermore inherited wealth is forbidden there together with interest rates. All Communist ideology prior to Marx comes from either a Christian or Judaic background, reaching its English variation in the ideas of the Diggers and Levellers of the 17th Century. No wonder then that most of the official churches have tried to interpret the Bible for us, for fear of us getting to the real meanings found there.
"A well known Rabbi in London stated it beautifully when he said that only when a Christian recognizes the word of God through the mouth of a Moslem can he really call himself a Christian..." did he say what a Jew should do to recognise the word of god? Gods, legends, heroes, music stars, football heroes, loved ones...where are the lines?
You're not a Catholic by any chance? Sounds very much like you're talking about Fowler's Stages of Faith there - where many don't get beyond his Synthetic-Conventional Faith stage (number 4 of 7) and only very few reach his Universalizing Faith stage - he cites Mother Theresa and Martin Luther King Jr as examples. To my mind, religious zealots are actually stuck in his stage three - the Mythic-Literal Faith, in which they are unable to separate fact from fantasy. Or, as Jean Piaget would say, they are incapable of abstract thought - an ability that normally emerges in early adolescence. Which says it all really.
Great discussion this.... I went with my family to the Haj exhibition in london two weeks back ... the day after the 4-0 debacle.... and was deeply impressed by the love and humanity involved in this simple practice of Islam. I have always been interested in the place of religion in people's lives... having explored many ways after a strict catholic upbringing. Just want to say that the propensity to kill and maim is in every one of us as is the capacity to love, share and shine. Yes aspects of religion attract all sorts of people , some of whom will, literally, believe that their god wants them to kill others. The Christian crusades were a great example.... and one Christian crusade army was actually used to wipe out the Christians in Constantinople due to a doctrinal dispute. I teach the psychology of religion at Univ. and it is a fascinating subject.
