Terrible scenes from Egypt last night..........literally open warfare between so called Fans and the mention of a fans group called the Ultras being involved.......over seventy dead. The event was bad enough in it's self......but the mention that they were copying the Ultras movement from Europe got me more interested in checking out what that meant. Having googled "the Ultras" the obvious information came from Wikipedia......everything I quote here is from there........so you need to take all facts with a pinch of salt. I quote........ The Ultras movement spread across Europe during the 1980's.1990's and 2000's starting with the countries closest to Italy.......... Ultras groups are usually based around a core group of founders or leaders (who tend to hold executive control meetings)............ Ultras groups can become violent,the vast majority of matches attended by Ultras conclude with no violent incidents....... The actions of Ultras groups occasionally can be overly extreme and are sometimes influenced by political ideologies or views of racism......... Can I emphasis that all the above facts have been taken from Wikipedia in no set order. It does seem that Ultra groups use flags and set displays with the emphasis on support and encouragement for their own team and intimidation towards their opponents creating a home fortress. Obvious thoughts come to mind regarding events nearer home...........I will say no more........what are your views
Somewhat connected - you may or may not know Djibril Cisse has "outed" 2 Lazio "fans" overnight for sending him racially abusive and threatening Tweets following his recent move from Lazio to QPR. The 2 fans in question aren't immediately identifiable as Ultras but if it quacks like a duck and it waddles like a duck, the chances are it is a ....... I'm not suggesting anyone at PAFC would condone let alone support that sort of behaviour but it's not a heathy style to emulate with the Italian Forza Verde headline etc. Of all people, you'd think a trade unionist would know better than to ape Fascist paraphernalia.
Thanks Gat-Po..........I did explain that I had done it wrong...........but it doesn't seem to allow you to correct headings........or am I missing something........or could you do that because of your mod position.
I can see no earthly reason to call any group at Home Park anything other than Green Army. That is exactly what we are known as and have been know as for ages now. To use any other title is just silly. I don't suppose for one moment the "Trade Unionist" gave one thought to the definition of the wording and what it means across Europe. However, there was a debate on PASOTI as to what the name should be and the favourite if I recall was in fact Green Army. The President was not in favour of that and in my view simply chose the current title despite the voting. This was also discussed on ATD and at that time El Presidente was still a member on there as well. It was pointed out that the name was synonymous with right wing violent cliques across Europe and that care should be taken not to associate anything to do with them with us. Because this was a view on ATD at the fact that El Presidente doesn't like them at all, I think pushed him to pick the title. Spite in other words. I've said before that the man deserves credit for his valiant efforts in Argyle's saving for the time and stuff he put into it but his post appointment actions leave a great deal to be desired. I think he believes his own headlines far too much and does not conduct himself in a way that fits the honourary post he has been given. I think Brent should dump him sooner rather than later as he divides the fan base rather than brings them together.
Sensible "I don't suppose for one moment the "Trade Unionist" gave one thought to the definition of the wording and what it means across Europe." For clarification, are you saying you think it possible that Chris Webb DIDN'T know the reputation of the Ultra's in Italy? Fascist salutes by Paolo Di Canio and all that? Didn't understand the connection people were going to make by calling yourself Ultras and waving a flag with an Italian slogan? That's inconceivable of any football fan with an interest in politics & current affairs. But then, I can't imagine the size of the ego that would be necessary to be a trade unionist and yet go down that route just because other people opposed it.
You possibly overestimate the intelligence or ability to think clearly of the man notdistant. I think he is not as bright as people give him credit for and as soon as ATD, that scourge of a website he hates so much, raised questions it entrenched his opinion. His actions since the takeover have made me question just how switched on he is. He was loud and pushy when it mattered for Argyle but bullies are loud and pushy and only useful if you want to fight somebody. Trouble is he has carried on in the same vein which tells me he is not intelligent enough to be able to become anything else when the new situation demands it. You don't have to have a huge ego to be a trade unionist and you should not tar everyone with the same brush in the Arthur Scargill mode. He happens to have developed a huge ego but that is probably down to the headlines he has had and the lack of intelligence not to believe all of them coupled with the fawning of PASOTI members who seem to think he can do nothing wrong. Well couldn't do anything wrong but some now are forming different views. Some people are good at fighting but rubbish at negotiating the peace.
Blimey Sensible, I got in trouble for rashly stereotyping him as a left-wing trouble maker, based only on the apparently irrelevant fact he's a public sector union official , and here you are with an even lower opinion of him!
He quite simply should not be the President. A President's job in this instance is to try to bring fans together in their support of the club and the population of the City into the ground by welcoming them and cajolling them into coming. All he wants to do or so it seems is maintain his own status and whip people into line if they show any sort of decent. I have seen good evidence of this since joining ATD myself in the way he posts on there and then changes it on PASOTI if it looks like he might have weakened. He loves PASOTI as his own feifdom and hates ATD because they won't salute him by order. He demonstrates his bullying tendancies all the time. If you think about it for a Union official he has sold out to the bosses for a title but he just can't see it because his ego gets in the way. Hence the comment on intelligence.
Looks more like an attempt at morse code or semiphor joe. plymborn is good at dots so maybe he knows what it says.
plymborn ... .... .. _ .. _. .. _ I learnt that off a Radio Operator many moons ago and have never forgotten it. Strange really because it seldom comes up for a use.
sensible I would never have said that................with ladies present...............now be very careful how you answer that, your life could be in danger.
We do love wandering off the thread story don't we. These "Ultras Groups" have become a problem throughout Europe.....Spreading outward from Italy........in the 1960s we shamefully introduced most of them to violence at matches and the surrounding areas before and after the match. Regarding PAFC........I have been trolling through PASOTI threads to see what was originally said when the "Forza Verde 1886" was set up. In a thread entitled.........."Presidents Progress....Forza Verde 1886"........ posted on Wednesday 14th Dec 2011 on PASOTI........Chris Webb deliberately avoided the term "Ultras" when naming the group "Forza Verde" and explained what the groups intentions were,please read it for yourselves. During the build-up to it being set-up there was much discussion on PASOTI.......mid-Nov till mid-Dec. Quite a few posters..........some more regular than others........actually refer to "Ultras" in their threads and messages.........the question is do they relize the significance of the term "Ultras" regarding European Football......Poltics.....Facism and the undertones that the word implies........Di Canio and his salute that was well documented at the time comes to mind. Maybe the powers that be at PAFC need to emphasis that Argyles group are in no way "Ultras" and should never be referred as such. It is unfortunate that we had to go italian with the name.........maybe drawing certain nutters into a situation that doesn't exist or ever was intended to be. Why didn't we stay to a good old anglo-saxon name.........."GREEN ARMY".......... seem so obvious.
Here is a turn up for the book. I was reading a thread on PASOTI about the Devonport End which had turned into a debate about racist chanting coming from there today. I say was reading because when I got part way down page 2 it suddenly disappeared so was pulled. The gist of this if nobody was there was the chant "gypo" was being directed a one of the Southend players of Eastern European origin. This was followed by "where's your caravan" chants and they kept it up for some time. The player appeared to be taking it as a joke and was playing to the crowd with laughing and gestures back. He did not seem to be upset by it at all. A member of the Green Army has apparently reported it to the Kick Racism Out people and the story is the FA will be investigating. So what was in all appearance a good natured shout at an opposing player and his taking it in good part and treating it as a joke has gone full circle and might become the basis of anything the FA decide to do about it. My friends and I were talking about this at the time during the match and commented that it was a bit dangerous to go down this sort of route with banter in this day and age. However, for what it's worth I have no doubt it was not meant as racist, was only a joke, and was taken as such by the player. This sadly is the danger though in these times.
A later comment also said that he didn't look so happy about it when Southend wern't winning anymore.
Yes in this day and age it was dangerous to use such banter in the Devonport end..........the "Forza Verde 1886" or to give it it's anglo saxon name "Green Force" is in an area that can give the wrong impression...........because of it's Italian name it can be linked to more sinister things It is possible that there could be a handful of trouble makers amongst the majority of normal fans............comments recently about a few chanting the name of a right wing organization,but do they understand what that entails and are they just aping what they think sounds the cool thing to do ? By PASOTI withdrawing a thread as you say... sensible.....only highlights the situation........PASOTI have influence,but they shouldn't be seen as speaking for the Club in this case. Better to condemn it as a fans organization than sweep it under the carpet.....as if it shouldn't be talked about at all. Having spent time as I have already said.....trawling through PASOTI threads between mid-Nov and mid-Dec I haven't found any evidence of the "Forza Verde 1886" (Green Force) being officially called an ULTRAS group. Individual posters and threads have mentioned the word in the chit-chat, regarding the setting up of a fans group based in the Devonport.......including the use of a big flag.........which in itself has caused an amount of discussion ....for and against. The player I assume was Mohsni that the fans where chanting at...........the problem is how good was his understanding of english and how well did he interprete what was being chanted. Even though it seemed in"good nature" it was dangerous fuel coming from the "Forza Verde" section of the terraces. The naming of the group "Forza Verde" was done on a vote from four selected names.....nothing wrong with that. What could be seen as wrong was the limited amount of people who could vote........am I right that it was debated and chosen only on PASOTI's website,..........or did fans on the terraces have a say, I can't remember if that was the case or not...........if it was only PASOTI, wouldn't that be a case of the tail wagging the dog. I do feel the wrong name was chosen......an Italian name that in Europe links it to the ULTRAS movement........known for facist political leanings and violence.......a poor choice of name for a very english club.
Think you are right about the players identity,he looked quite unhappy at the final whistle going off without a handshake straight down the tunnel,whether it was due to the stick he got or the fact they threw away a 2-0 lead who knows.For me as a hardened footie fan,I felt uncomfortable at the force of the "banter" and the references to the players assumed ethnicity-I will be contacting the club tomorrow re my "customer" experience.The whole idea of the ULTRA idea from Webb is stupid,crass and naive-mention "Ultras" to most football fans and they will make a connection with Roma and right wing arm waving thugs,not a Westcountry team in league 2.Technically that was racist chanting yesterday-RACISM KICK IT OUT!
He laughed at the chanting and even encouraged it by playing to the crowd with gestures. Whenever he got the ball and the chant started he had a grin from ear to ear. He was pissed off because they threw away a lead rather than anything coming from the crowd. There is a huge discussion on PASOTI and a seperate one on ATD. The latter seem to condemn it out of hand whereas a handful on the former seem to condone. I know it is racist chanting and I know it is against the law. But, maybe through ignorance, I genuinely believe that the mob never really considered the racist overtones of what they were singing. They thought it was just football banter. There were also one or two individuals who shouted it out from somewhere around where I sit. They were shouting "gypo" and in my opinion they actually were doing it with malice. There is a thin line between hatred and a joke sometimes so on balance it should perhaps be left alone altogether. It is a bit hard to sanitise a football ground altogether though.
