OK, so noblelox is insulting, but I get his point. I loved standing on the Kop. The surge of a goal and the wild celebration is something the modern era of fan will probably never know. I know I miss it. Celebration is now done with your neighbour, not everyone within arm's reach and stagger a couple of feet in any direction. And then you sit down? **** that. Sitting in the centenary stand, knees under my ****in' chin does my head good and proper. you can't get a good lungful of air with your knees under your chin to sing nice and loud. And the lack of legroom means I frequently kneecap meself moving along the rows and getting up/sitting down. Its evil. I know the safety reasons, but I can't see why if we can put a man on the moon and smash the fundamental particles of existence into nothingness, we can't design safe standing areas. Yes, the more genteel amongst us might not want to stand, but some of us would welcome the opportunity to do so if we chose to. You used to get 20,000 on the old Kop, and that made a wall of noise that makes the modern version sound like Larry Grayson with laryngitis!
Not entirely sure they're at all valid Saint. How many times have you REALLY almost lost your footing when a goal's scored - you leap to your feet and before you know it you're tangled up in the seat in front of you? The potential for limb breaking is extremely high - I'm just surprised this hasn't happened on a multitude of occasions.
But feel justified to preach about what they don't know. First photos into evidence are the only photos I could Google on the Lepping Lane Stand It is not easy to make out, but the barriers, are a bit of tubular steel, supported by thin "L" shaped legs, that get their strength from the "L", several of these buckled under the force of people pushed against them. But more importantly, these little 6 foot wide barriers were all in strait rows, so there were runs or paths of steps between these barriers that went from the very back to the very front, and that is why people squeezing in at the back were able to kill people down at the very front. It was cheap, nasty and decades old. Sheffield Wednesday had not invested in crowd safety ever! Photo 3 is the old Kop Terace Let us consider this stark difference. Anyone who goes into the club museum can stand behind an original Kop barrier. You will see that the whole barrier was made of 4" square tubular steel, which any engineer will tell you is infinitely stronger than the drinking straw and pipe cleaner arrangement at Sheffield. i would suspect that the concrete it was embedded into would fail before the metal would. But more importantly, look at the size and configuration of these barriers. They are 6 steps apart, while Lepping lane was 9 steps between each one, and can you see a single point where the gaps are in a line? it was like running a maze to get to your spot, many people would duck under, rather than take the weaving route required to transverse them. The secondary aspect I want to point out, is the access to these two stands. Lepping Lane As you can see the pitch from the gate, there is not much to stop a charge that will imact the people at the front of the stand. Spion Kop (computer representation) Even if the exit gates were to have been thrown open, you still have to climb 40 odd stairs to get to the top of the back of the Kop, after which you would still have the weaving exercise to negotiate to the front of the kop. The point of this lesson is to show that Lepping Lane could never have happened on the Kop, never in a month of Sundays, but after Heysel and the Toxteth Riots, maggie {spit} thatcher was just sick of all things Liverpool and like the unions, the working classes were there to be crushed. So the Taylor report used a sledgehammer to crack a walnut, and every stadium had to go all seater, even though it was only the few poorly maintained stands that needed updating. it reduced the numbers of people in the ground, it increased the cost of going to the match, thereby taking football out of the reach of the poorer people, who maggie no doubt felt were the trouble makers. The problem was 96 people had last their lives, so anyone who spoke up in defence of standing, would have come across as evil personified, and so the golden age of football had its heart ripped out by the tories in London. We now have a chance to start correcting that mistake and restore the heart of each and every club in this country. It is not disrespectful to the 96, as it was not terracing that killed them, it was poor policing, the fact that the match was being broadcast, and couldn't be delayed and it was a poorly designed and maintained ground.
Well, I'm a hammer visiting the board and stumbled across this one. I havn't been to a match since 93. I'm pretty tall and long legged and sitting watching my team losing whilst getting cramp in my legs ain't worth £35. back in 'the old days' if we were losing 3 or 4 nil we'd start dancing and singing in the stands, not really giving a toss what the score was just having a party and creating a huge atmosphere, the 89 fa cup semi final v forest a prime example, forest were winning 4-0 and all you could hear were the hammers singing and dancing, that never happens any more because no one can dance around doing the okey-cokey or a conga around the north stand, that was what the going to football was all about, a good time win, lose or draw. It'd be easy to develop the seating areas into terraced 'pens', I'm no architect but I'm pretty sure I could design a safe stadium that included terracing which would probably be safer than many all seater stadiums today. Those 'safe' seats wouldn't look particularly safe if something unforseen occured, quickly hampering any escape attempts of people in a panic.
fair enough noblelox you actually tried to explain your point of view. credit for that. nice time perhaps when you see a genuine article trying to look at boths sides of view you might offer that and not an insult
It seems to me that the anti terracing views are acting like there wouldn't be any 'safe' place for children if terracing was introduced, it's not like anyone is asking for every ground to be compulsory terracing 100%, just some. The atmosphere during games is dead compared to 'the old days'. A ten feet deep 'bands' of terracing around the stadium could not be considered any more dangerous than a seating area 10 feet deep, and women and children have the OPTION of going in there, or sitting where they usually do.
I have to say I loved standing...won't ever deny it. It's a sensation that's hard to describe to anyone who didn't experience it. I accept all the arguments about people pissing in pockets, being squuezed between the two bevvied lard arses, the horrendous bogs, the stutter to get out for half an hour afterwards...but I miss the atmosphere, the songs, the sensation isn't the same. I understand all the arguments against as well as anyone and I would never advocate anything other than entirely safe standing (with nice bogs) but if it ever came back I know what part of the ground I'd want to be in
I'm sure Billy'd be happy to piss in your pocket to help you re-create the experience. One of the things I remember from those days is because of the bog-standard bogs most people would just go and piss against the back wall at half time, so by the time the second half started it was like standing in an ornamental waterfall.
The piss gushers,the soggy steak pies,the bottles of Higsons Brown Ale,The high pitched singing coming from the boys pen,constantly walking backwards up the terracing for 90 minutes to avoid the barrier. They were the days.
I use to deliberately stand in a gap between the barriers, so I could get caught up in the swaying. I use to get there as soon as the kop opened and read the programme, then without fail, some lanky piss head would fall out the pub at 5 to 3 and stand in front of me, until the first kop goalmouth incident, when he'd get shoved down a flight of stairs. It does break my heart these days, when you see how poor the kop is. All the young people may think it is still something special, but far from it, you had to be there, it never comes across on video as to how good it was. [video=youtube;r8T0WdYhIfA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8T0WdYhIfA[/video]
well all i can say is i gave it back to you as good as i got it so if we move past that and you have explained why you think terracing can work. I think you can't recreate the kop cos like you say us younger guys never experienced it as a terrace. I will still stand by the statement that i don't see women and kids being able to fit into what you describe and i honestly think some clubs would happily just forget about seats to shove more in. I think ok, bad stadium design can occur with or without seats and wire and fences was one of the big reasons along with gross negligence. the main reason i worte this article was that i could express a view but capture other views and expereinces too.
Back in the day i went to most of Watford's away games and it was always a good laugh. However, I must admit that there were times when i wondered if i was going to get out in one piece (usually in the big London games). Wembley was also pretty bad. The main issue was that on most occasions greedy clubs, stewards, turnstile operators or whatever used to let more people in than they were supposed to which could cause some really hairy moments. Personally, i wouldn't want to stand at football any more but if they did work out a way to design safe standing areas and enough people wanted it then fair play and good luck to them.
They always did fit in, just not in the middle. The Kop is not some all inclusive, equal opportunity, wheelchair access kind of place, and why do you see that as important? it was women and kids around the edges, or they can choose from one of the three other stands. It is more of a visceral instinctive place for cavemen to bond and show their allegiance. Did the women and children join the cavemen on the hunt? No they didn't, and why should something end just because it isn't all inclusive? Should the Opera be diluted just because I can't turn up in my Liverpool top and join in the singing? So why shouldn't the Kop exist, just because it is not wise for women and kids to get in the middle of? Do we put a tar covered cycle path down Snowdon, so that the family can mountain bike together? Look at the Kop as an adrenalin junkie activity and stop trying to mamby pamby it.
tbh I can't see how soemone who hasn't experienced terracing in a football match can possibly argue against people who have, a vast majority of fans who used to stand in the terraces, if given the chance, would go straight back there.
MITO your concerns are fair enough and you're right about the dangers of sub standard areas but personally I just think if terracing was ever to be re-introduced at top level clubs there would be so much focus on them that design safety and maintenance of said safety would always remain top of the agenda. I've always thought it could work in new grounds but I still can't see it happening at Anfield ever again.
Pass me an Echo I'll never forget one of my first games in The Kop seeing a couple of girls a few steps down from us turning round at half time with THE most disgusted look on their faces......eeeeeeeeh which one of yoo knobheads has pissed in my pocket....oh my god you're all horrible animals poor girl didn't stand in the middle ever again taught me to be on my guard put it that way.
