I have read and thought about the story of Aston Villa thinking about putting in "safe terracing" My views are formed not from a view of the tragedy that occurred to my club as I know that the circumstances that occurred are not possible in today's football grounds where no fences exist. No my views come form a more rounded view of public safety, inclusion and why make this move. The case against: 1. This is not designed to give back to people some form of atmosphere or experience that they have lost in my opinion. since 1992 there have not been terraces, 20 years. that's two generations of people who've gone through the grounds so who really wants to "stand"..... well they are male, young or old enough to have been on terraces before and of a particular mindset IMO. 2. lets talk inclusion. No not race, inclusion. If i want to bring a kid or I were a woman would i go in this new "safe terracing". simple answer. nope and nope. The view for a kid is useless and they can see nothing and women as we know don't like that. You are creating a solid block of tightly packed men in other words. 3. Now public safety. No not personal safety, public safety. Nobody can tell me that stewards or polcie can successfully police a terrace like they can a seated stand. Unless you vet and photograph everyone coming in and then use facial recognition software how the hell can you isolate a guy who throws something or a guy who is drunk and disorderly or a guy who shouts something offensive.... easy answer you can't. With a seat you have a number and in 99.99% of cases you can get a bead on a guy from cameras.... in a terrace a guy can wander about form one end to the other throwing stuff etc. 4. the surge. In no way can "safe terracing" stop a surge, no matter how many barriers there are to keep people at the back there and at eh front there you end up in a section with people 20 deep or so and 20 people surging forward = a crush... it happens every bloody day at concerts and you end up pulling people out who've fainted in the front. we all know young loads at 1-12 want to be big men and will sneak in there... you know it will happen The case for: 1. This is not the bad old days, people can stand together without violence and where the is a minority but significant number of people, men in the main who want to stand them them into one area so everyone else can stay sitting round the ground. 2. Clubs can instantly and cheaply increase revenue as you can get twice the number of people in one end of the ground. 3. Hillsborough was a tragedy for so many reasons but there will be no locked fence in front of people so if something occurs the pitch can be accessed ........................................... I have to ask are the reason's for seriously outweighing the very valid reasons never to do this? Is a bit of money and making guys who should no better happy (by returning to the 80s) really enough reason? i love going to games, I was 13 in 1989 I don't need a terrace to make a game exciting. I think i much prefer to see a family in front of me in the seats and sit with 2-3 of my mates than be in a pen with 10,000 others. Terraces are just a cheap way of building a ground IMO. They are not needed in the premier league
Standing terraces is not to different from standing at a music gig, and I'm a metal fan so I know rough crowds. I feel if it can work there it can work in football. At gigs people like to sing along, wave their arms, clap. At football people like to sing, waves their arms and clap (no mosh pits though). I think standing terraces could be great for a small section of the ground, but will have to be designed well. A family area could be introduced for people worried about woman and children, or just wanting a quieter place to sit, watch the game and have a good time. With standing terraces I feel clubs would charge less for tickets as well, and with so many fans getting priced out of attending football, it could help to fill the crowds more. For security, extra CCTV and stewards actually in the crowd could be introduced, and regular isle's between the crowd for an easy entrance and exit.
J.. fair enough but how many of said metal gigs have wonen and kids at least wanted to come and attend? How many sorry to even say this but "justin beiber" concerts have you been at where kids get pulled out of the front of the "pit" "In the day" the kop was a right of passage, were you big enough to get in there. thats a male right of passage, a macho thing. ergo where you have it you have kids wanting to get in.... how many heavy metal zepplin concerts do you see that? I can tell you from my chauvanistic point of view that when i did bring my missus to a game standing i nthe seats at anfield was enough to intimidate the hell out of her so for me this standing this is really about making more cheaper moeny for clubs like villa and others. I do agree we are priced out of football but in reality thats to pay mega wages and to allow corporate boxes..... I don't see how women and kids are included in football (and make a positive contribution to a family athmosphere at games) if men want to go stand in their own section. Will you volunteer to stand in with the mancs next time theres a big derby? have you seen the FA report on arrests last year and the amount of knife crime. 50 camera, IMO on as section of guys where you can just see heads aint going to catch much. ok so utd fans get arrested a lot for standing up it seems according to some utd fans on here anyway... why do they hark back for this standing experience... Is it not the same reaosn guys recreate mock battles and play with sowrds? macho ego? Or is this just me being lazy and liking my seat where i can eat my pie and drink my coke in peace.
Germany seem to be doing this fine without much trouble. The atmosphere is great and if you needed an example just watch a Borrusia Dortmund game its brilliant.
and they have police dogs, guns and fences too in places...... the german staia are very mixed. lots of fabulous new ground in germany. I will be going over this week and pass by stuttgarts new gorund. I don't know any more than that but its an emotive topic that seems to boil down to the tow key topics for me. 1. men wanting to be in there. 2. more money for clubs.
Haha you get too many teenagers (14-16) and too many girls (with their boyfriends or there for the fashion) at metal gigs, depending on the severity of the metal being played.
Lets not slip to crazily off topic, but my favourite bands are Megadeth, Iron Maiden and Anthrax. And ok, maybe a rock concert isn't the best comparison, but there are similarities. Like Download festival when My Chemical Romance headlined, but most of the set was metal bands. That crowd should never be mixed. That can resemble Mario Balotelli kicking Parking in the head. And you get plenty of woman at gigs. I once saw a kid at a Soul Fly gig who I'd guess was about 11, and a group of kids maybe about 13-14 at another metal hammer event. Are there any other sports in this country where the spectators stand? apart from golf.
Plenty i'd say. To be honest i reckon most smaller rugby grounds are standing and half of non league football grounds. Really anyhting over a crowd of 5k is rare in england for smaller sports to ice hockey, cycling (indoor) basketball etc don't really count. Cricket in theory outside of the big grounds would have standing room... and there's a reason why... Really rugby and football are the only two sports we have that have big outdoor arenas with enclosed areas outside of motorsprot... Again does henman hill at wimbledon or a bank of earth at a corner at donnington or silverstone equate to a football gorund with all the intendant risks of fire, crowd control etc? I don't know.... Crowd mixing is the point of safety so i guess if 70k can stand at glastonbury 15k should be able to stand in theiry on a barriered area in villa park if the pithc is an easy access point but i still feel public order is still a big issue. I could go to a terrace, wear a scarf and throw objects on and the only way i can be dealt with is by my fellow crowd singling me out. I for sure think said standing only area should be for home fans only, season ticket owners who have to scan into the area each game (use a thumb print cos we know anyone can get a ticket) be strictly number controlled and there should be a lot heavier sanctions in place for misbeahviour. I'd be that strict. No way should away fans get standing areas, no way should faceless berks be allowed to get in and no way should any more than a safe number be able to access the area.
horse racing ... you watch the grand national or the cheltenham festival and youve up to 70,000 people standing watching an event that does change in a split second with people after losing big money and some winners , but theres no squash or major trouble.
I remember standing on terraces and really disliking it, this may be because the terrace in question was at Layer Road (which was a pit of a ground). There was nothing worse that being sandwhiched between 2 fat old men stinking of BO, being knocked about and burnt by cigerettes. My experiances of sitting are much better. Old Wembley, Old Layer road clock end, The Kop and The Annie Road end have provided me with a much better match day experiance... maybe i'm just a snob...
maybe we are. horse racing is a good shout as well. in the end it goes back to why do it? I was told when i was young you'd not get as wet standing comapred to seat and you felt like being part of some single entity... I thought that decent design dealt with one and the kop dealt with the other... i still think that ok if there is a type of fan that would like to stand then ok but is it to benefit the club financially or to give in to the "i'll stand cos i'm a Pr**K and i don't care about others brigade that constantly get fines at away games and thier seat allocation reduced then whinge about it at fa cup 4th round time" I for one don't think it'll be much cheaper, they'll take in more money from bigger crowds aswell but players will suck it up as always. If you pan a camera over a crowd these days its radically different to when i was a kid, maybe thats why some gorunds sound so quiet and maybe that why they look sometimes like the should be at wimbledon eating strawberries not eastlands but there you go. when my daughter is old enough to remember i want to take her to anfield before it closes (20 year?) but i'd never go into a standing area with her and know full well the bloody crowd outside the main stand alone is well packed enough to scare her.
Being an old git (as some on here never tire of reminding me, Zingy), all my childhood and youth was spent standing on the terraces. It's ingrained so much that I always stand when I'm watching in the pub, even if there are stools available. When we were kids we used to sit on the crash barriers- when the surge came you'd be propelled forwards off the barrier. If you were lucky, you'd end up on the back of the bloke in front- if not, on the terrace itself. Then the bloke behind would pick up up and stick you back on your perch. Great memories, but I have to agree that it's probably safer these days and I don't expect it to go back. Besides, how would all you southern softies cope?
must say standing in the pub is a must when viewing footy. I do agree with that. nervous energy and all that. I walk around at home. The thing at anfield is with all the stnading up every time something happens you get to use that nervous energy up. I don't know what the answer is really but i think one would need to see and test these terraces that are meant to be safe... ie pay some proper hooligans to go in and show what could happen in a test... like o ntop gear whe nthe get car jackers to break intot thier buys. If you can pick someone out of a crowd or prove you can't get in there without a face and positvie id ticket and there no danger and you can pull a toruble maker out then ok but i think it's just another way to get more moeny for not much investment.
I've never read such poorly written and uninformed bollox in my life. I just laughed and stopped reading at the "the surge. In no way can "safe terracing" stop a surge, no matter how many barriers there are" Talk about denying logic. if there is a barrier in front of me and one behind, there is no possible way to surge, you imbecile! You may not need terracing to make the game exciting for you, and I truly pity you for that, but the fact is, the seated Kop is a sickly shadow of it's former self. As you say, you were only 13 when it happened, so you don't have a clue, but as someone that use to stand bang in the middle of the two roof supports, I know. This is not the kop any more, it is nowhere near what is use to be, and no amount of giant flags an banner can make up for the lack of singing there now is. The only time it comes anywhere close to the old Kop is for a Champion's league semi-final, which equals a mid-season league match against Derby from the 80's. And don't give me your "inclusion" bollox, my wife use to stand next to me on the old Kop and loved it, it should never be a place for nuns and children called Cecil! They can go sit in the Centenary stand and leave 5 minutes before the end of the match to "get to their car" So if your missus was "intimidated" she should not be there. Not everything is for everyone, so football should not be prettified so dainty ladies feel comfortable. The standing Kop was always safe, there was no way to surge because of the positioning and the quality of the barriers, and if you had ever been there, you would have known this.
Have you noticed how much football, the grand national and Formula 1 have changed in the last 30 years? Yet in the same time cricket, rugby and tennis have not undergone any such changes? And the fact that how much poorer all three sporting events have become because of the limp-wristed, liberal interference? They were not for everyone, they were a bit dangerous, and yet, people who had no involvement with these sports felt the need to change them into something they were not, for "Safety" reasons... Now football is a non-contact sport, viewed by business people in glass boxes, Formula 1 is now a precession around the track, with the only overtaking done during pit-stops, and my granny on a Blackpool beach donkey can now complete the Grand National course. Yet all the public school sports have avoided such interference. Doesn't seen right, does it?
noblelox don't be ignorant and apologise for being so rude... now that i've corrected you manners plase explain properly this time how this terracing of yours works... i quote "if there is a barrier in front of me and one behind, there is no possible way to surge, you imbecile!" please explain that you insulting person. why is there no-one behind you? come on out with it, a barrier in fornt, nobody behind.. you are telling me that you'd have one row of standing people with a barrier between each row or something? may as well give me a seat then. to me a terrace is at least 20 rows of people next... i'm entitled to be the age i am, i can't change that though i wuold suspect somehow form you're highly insulting and total lack of manners that you are not older than me somehow.... i don't really think given the absuive tirade at a reasoned debate opener that i can ebeleive you or your wife stood on the kop....
I dont think there would be any problem with Standing at football grounds now. Health and Safety standards are on another planet towards what they where 20 years ago.I have to wear a hi vis vest going through the works car park for f**ks sake Plus the threat of hooliganism is alomst none existant towards what is was.Football is almost a middle class game these days,certainly you cant aford to go the footy if your on minimum wage ( Always makes me laugh when opposition fans sing, Youll never get a job, as if anyone unemployed could afford the match these days) The entire football culture is totally different form the 80s
