I thought you'd fallen out with me because you started trying to wind me up in the same way you do with PnP. I promise you Fan, I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD. I can't make it any clearer than that.
The only ignorance here is being shown by you. The quranic explanation is completely different from that of Aristotle and Galen. In fact people who believe those fellas used to laugh at the quranic explanation Keith Moore is the main author of Clinically Oriented Anatomy, which is the main textbook used for anatomy in medical schools across the United States, Canada and the United Kingdom. He converted to Islam because of the accuracy of the quran in relation to embroyology
Not sure how you see it as being manipulative, the stupidity is in th epeople who comment on it without research
Everyone on GC know you love a good row Fan. You obviously care as much for Christmas as I do for Eid so why else would you create a thread about it. I was being nice, why do you care about christmas? Definitely already did thanks. As long as you got there So if it's enough, why don't Muslims eat in this way all year? You're pretty hot on self-denial, so why not do it all the time? Some do. Ramadan isnt the only time muslims fast you know. Do you? Yes I look back on what has been said, you have stated you dont There's a difference between a 'creator' and god. The Abrahamic god isn't just a creator, he is also a destroyer, controller, protector, judge, jury and executioner. All roles of a creator. Even if you accept the evolution/big band/ scientific view all those things come into it You want me to explain what those words mean? Maybe you NEED my English lessons? OK I accept yor offer, so please explain what you meant by that statement I know it doesn't Fan. We have established it does How do you know all this Fan? Has someone come back from the dead and told you? Its a process. Its like when someone tells you something and you dont believe it, but those things come to pass and you realise that they were right and so the rest must have been true too. As I said I believe there is a creator, quran to be the word of Allah and Muhammad to be his messenger, these things are all from these sources and since everything else has been true there is no reason for me to disbelieve the rest I never said I did know anything about Christianity. Thats been my whole point, I know you didnt from our discussions. You followed your own whims and desires and found a reference to blame when things went 'wrong'. Its very common But you are also making the mistake many people make about autism. You are generalising, you seem to be saying 'some autistic kids are affected this way so yours must be the same'. Anyone who knows anything about the condition knows that it affects everyone who has it differently. It's not like Down's syndrome or cerebral palsy for example, which tend to affect the majority of sufferers in much the same way. That is waht I am trying to say, IT IS different, yet scientists try and define it basing on what they see as 'normal' doesnt work that way. Our kids are special their pain is different to ours and their joy is different too. Who do I believe though Fan? You, heavily biased, or the guy below who seems to know what he's talking about but whose claims are much more realistic? You have to believe YOU and what your head and heart says, but you have to KNOW what you believe or disbelieve. Not sure who the guy below is but if its the Jonah guy his response is taken from a right wing website (not saying he took it directly from there) and is full of inaccuracy even wikki will show you that I have given you the name Moore (first name Keith) look him up and see if he is more or less likely to know about embroyology than any of us, then decide After all you acept some scientists views As for the notion of biased there is no response/defence to that except I am backing stuff up I refute your claim either way. Based on what? I've never been a big champion of science on here Fan, not sure where you got that from. So what DO you base it on? There was always something not quite 'right'. He was very easily stressed as a baby and learnt things at a much slower pace than my daughter has since. But we thought he was just a slow learner. It was only when he got to 2 and was still completely unable to talk that we realised it was something serious. Like I said it can't have been the MMR jab, he didn't have it. He had separate measles, mumps and rubella innoculations. All symptoms of it being from birth but not properly diagnosed, proving the doctors know nothing. It was same in my case. Not saying its certain but there are links to all kind of things that can lead to problems later, these include STD's from the past, medications, the pill etc. I don't know where I've said I'm this big science geek. Evolution wouldn't be swayed by someone being good would it? It's survival of the fittest, not nicest. You have mentioned science many times I took it from there, I think our lads dispute the survival of the fittest theory tbh Which muddles? You're the one who contradicted yourself, first by saying that the pious NEVER suffer but then changing to 'they deal with suffering better'. Muddles such as not knowing what you have said. Dealing with 'suffering' or 'pain' reduces the suffering and pain surely? My point was that what you describe as suffering isnt always so. Our lads again being an example, I have asumed/concluded that your lads situation has caused you suffering/pain. I have had anxious moments such as the birth but I put it in the hands of Allah and the result has made me believe more My Jipisms come out when you're boring me Fan. Yet you continue? Not saying YOU'RE not honest here, just that you're a bit too trusting of people who clearly aren't honest. I was doubtful about your bengali tale, so not true What I believe can't affect them because they ceased to exist centuries ago. It can't affect god because he isn't real. so basically NO I never said we came from nothing and there ws no creator. Just no god, which as I explained earlier is very different. we agree then. There is a creator and its not the image people have of God I thought you'd fallen out with me because you started trying to wind me up in the same way you do with PnP. I dont wind him up, he just bores me after a bit by not answering questions or linking wikki as his 'source' so it becomes a game I thought your Jipisms were the same AND you admitted in a previous discussion that you didnt believe in what you were saying but were continuing. You seemed to have this 'win' theory if I recall. thought you were doing the same thing I promise you Fan, I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD. I can't make it any clearer than that. As we agreed above not God but a Creator definately. All you say and state have done points to that as will the whole christmas celebrations, presents etc shows
“The examples I gave you are very clear, ie embroylogy, the oceans etc” The examples you gave were garbage. There is nothing in the Koran that wasn’t cribbed from existing “knowledge” of the day. If there were, people with functioning brain cells might actually take it seriously, rather than brainwashed peasants. “I am not talking about religion per se, talking about islam and the Quran. The biggest idiocy is to accept some of the 'science' that gets told as if it were fact” Yeah, reason, falsifiable evidence and peer review vs goddidit. “You should at least read thw quran and its commentary before you arrive at a conclusion, that wpuld be the 'scientific' thing to do” This is a ludicrous response to someone pointing out your boneheaded use of logic and reason. I repeat: google “logical fallacies” and pay particular attention to “special pleading” and “argument from personal incredulity”. You commit both these pretty much every time I read something of yours. It’s tragic. “I am no scholar and even I know when, how and by whom it was written down by. That is the beauty of the Islamic system there has to be a 'chain'. “ This supposedly “Islamic” chain system is simply a line of supposedly reliable witnesses (wow – only possible in Islam). A five year old could see the problems with this: hearsay on hearsay; anecdote on anecdote, and all administered by those oh-so-reliable religious leaders. Cynical manipulators. “Zaid was a persoonal scribe to the prophet. He was given the task of collating all the bits of the quran and writing down what other people knew. He died before the quran was put into an 'authorised' version as you put it. Showing what little knowledge you have” I was pointing out what SOME MUSLIMS ACTUALLY CONTEND you idiot. This was to make the wider point that you pretend is incorrect that THERE IS NO AGREED VERSION OF HOW, BY WHOM, WHEN AND WHY THE KORAN WAS PUT TOGETHER. There just isn’t. If you think there is, please go to the Religious Studies or History departments of Cambridge University where they will probably give you a highly paid job and a prize to go with it. “The quranic verses have as I have said times dates attached to them, they are also verified by a chain to a number of people” Do I even need to comment on this rubbish? If I put 1816 on here you would assume I’d written this while Napoleon was invading Russia? “You clearly dont know what you are talking about. Ibn Hisham did a biography of Muhammad based on the works of Ibn Ishaq. He had nothing to do with the Quran. “ I was quite clearly talking about THE FIRST ACCOUNT OF MUHAMMAD’S LIFE. The point being that accounts of his life, along with the Hadith and the Koran are manmade, hearsay, bollocks. “There is if you wished to look. “ You’re the one with no wish to look. Unfortunately for you it would reveal you’ve wasted your life on childish nonsense. “The quran was is and always has been written in what is known as 'Fus'ha' which was the dialect of the Quraish” And if there was no standardised Arabic writing until the end of the 9th century that “point” (see logical fallacies) has absolutely zero bearing on what I said. “The fact Muhammad an illiterate man was able to 'know' all this is amazing in itself.“ <Sigh> I refer you once again to myth-making, lying, retrospective reinterpretations of event by manipulators in any folklore “chain” you care to mention.
Happy christmas Jonah, believe me buddy you are banging your head against the wall trying to reason with "the fan".... His magic man in the sky is the only magic man in the sky.... Total brainwashing from birth.... I tend to post pictures like this to try and trigger death threats... It`s the Portland christmas bomber please log in to view this image
The examples you gave were garbage. There is nothing in the Koran that wasn’t cribbed from existing “knowledge” of the day. If there were, people with functioning brain cells might actually take it seriously, rather than brainwashed peasants. The examples I gave you are FACT and Proven today. No knowledge existed at the time and some of it was ridiculed until it was proven to be FACT In the case of embroyology the leading scientists of today attest to it, as they do with the water example and the death of stars etc. Yeah, reason, falsifiable evidence and peer review vs goddidit. Or in the case of the examples I gave all point to it being true so god did do it This is a ludicrous response to someone pointing out your boneheaded use of logic and reason. I repeat: google “logical fallacies” and pay particular attention to “special pleading” and “argument from personal incredulity”. You commit both these pretty much every time I read something of yours. It’s tragic. Have you read the quran and commentaries? or is google your source? I am giving you evidence, evidence that some of the leading proponents in certain fields are saying could not be known as the technology did not exist. This supposedly “Islamic” chain system is simply a line of supposedly reliable witnesses (wow – only possible in Islam). A five year old could see the problems with this: hearsay on hearsay; anecdote on anecdote, and all administered by those oh-so-reliable religious leaders. Cynical manipulators. All saying the same thing? must be true then I was pointing out what SOME MUSLIMS ACTUALLY CONTEND you idiot. This was to make the wider point that you pretend is incorrect that THERE IS NO AGREED VERSION OF HOW, BY WHOM, WHEN AND WHY THE KORAN WAS PUT TOGETHER. There just isn’t. If you think there is, please go to the Religious Studies or History departments of Cambridge University where they will probably give you a highly paid job and a prize to go with it. And I am saying there is a clear process and no contention. Its common knowledge. Another beauty about Islam you dont need cambridge or Oxford to explain it to you Its understood by all. Do I even need to comment on this rubbish? If I put 1816 on here you would assume I’d written this while Napoleon was invading Russia? Are you ******ed? seriously? there are times and dates of revelation and who was present etc. If you showed me a piece of paper with a chain of narration going back to 1816, witnessed by multiple people all who attested to it and were in the presence of Napolean then why would I doubt it? The quran and its oldest copies are available to see today and are word for word the same, how is that so hard to understand? It has not changed I was quite clearly talking about THE FIRST ACCOUNT OF MUHAMMAD’S LIFE. The point being that accounts of his life, along with the Hadith and the Koran are manmade, hearsay, bollocks. It wasnt clear at all but thanks for clarifying. The point is that the work of Ibn Hisham has no bearing on the quran, or even the life of Muhammad. It is merely a book written by a guy years later. No different to any unauthourised biography today. There are many like this written by a variety of authors and mean nothing in the scheme of things You’re the one with no wish to look. Unfortunately for you it would reveal you’ve wasted your life on childish nonsense. Point being I have looked and have shown you the errors in what you have mistakenly said And if there was no standardised Arabic writing until the end of the 9th century that “point” (see logical fallacies) has absolutely zero bearing on what I said. That is why I explained that the quran is written in Fus'ha. Do you know what Fus'ha is? There is dispute about the 9th century too. Its usually written as 7th - 9th century, Besides the morphology and syntax between classical arabic and MSA are unchanged, the only difference being the lexis and stylistics The Fus'ha is closer to classical arabic and all prayers etc are done in that and have been foe 1400 years <Sigh> I refer you once again to myth-making, lying, retrospective reinterpretations of event by manipulators in any folklore “chain” you care to mention.[/QUOTE] Ok lets accept that for a moment, how do you explain so many of the things that we know today as being true/fact being so in the quran? and before you go into aristotle again, bear in mind his view on embroyology has been proven to be incorrect
Dr. E. Marshall Johnson is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Developmental Biology at Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. “The Quran describes not only the development of external form, but emphasizes also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science.” Dr. Gerald C. Goeringer is Course Director and Associate Professor of Medical Embryology at the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine “In a relatively few aayahs (Quranic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development, such as classification, terminology, and description, existed previously. In most, if not all, instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature.” Dr. William W. Hay is a well-known marine scientist. He is Professor of Geological Sciences at the University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, USA. After a discussion with Professor Hay about the Quran’s mention of recently discovered facts on seas, he said: “I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the Holy Quran, and I have no way of knowing where they would come from, but I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and that this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages.” And when he was asked about the source of the Quran, he replied: “Well, I would think it must be the divine being.” Dr. Yoshihide Kozai is Professor Emeritus at Tokyo University, Hongo, Tokyo, Japan, and was the Director of the National Astronomical Observatory, Mitaka, Tokyo, Japan. “I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in [the] Quran, and for us the modern astronomers have been studying very small pieces of the universe. We’ve concentrated our efforts for understanding of [a] very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts [of] the sky without thinking [about the] whole universe. So, by reading [the] Quran and by answering to the questions, I think I can find my future way for investigation of the universe.” Professor Tejatat Tejasen is the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at Chiang Mai University, Chiang Mai, Thailand. Previously, he was the Dean of the Faculty of Medicine at the same university. During the Eighth Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Professor Tejasen stood up and said: “During the last three years, I became interested in the Quran . . . . From my study and what I have learned from this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Quran fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means. Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth, which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the one who is eligible [as the] creator. This creator must be God. Therefore, I think this is the time to say La ilaha illa Allah, there is no god to worship except Allah (God), Muhammadur rasoolu Allah, Muhammad is Messenger (Prophet) of Allah (God).
please post the points you are making and I will address them. and as for keith Moore really? The American Association of Clinical Anatomists awarded Dr. Moore with their Honored Member Award (in 1994). The American Association of Anatomists awarded him the Henry Gray/Elsevier Distinguished Educator Award in 2007 for human anatomy education in the anatomical sciences his books are used today in our own medical institutions
Just another day for you tomorrow Fan? My dad has bought me a Wii ..... ha ha, your faith is crap .... I don`t even believe in God but still get a big roast dinner champagne and presents.... Some arsehole will try to blow up a plane with his shoes or pants no doubt.... ****s...
I already have a wii, bought it for my son when he finished reading quran, also have xbox and a couple of PS2s DS's etc We have 2 EIDS to clebrate and get plenty dont know about the plane bit but would be funny if phill popped it Mind you the royals follow the german tradition of celebrating on boxing day so he has got a couple of days yet PS wtf you on here for? its xmas eve shouldnt you be wallowing in hypocricy singing carols and wishing good will and all that? You know the stuff Jesus taught you to do
I have asked for you to post the bits you want addressing. If you cant be bothered then do one Its easy posting links, but what about the links? where is the problem you see or want addressing or what bit is a case for or against your argument? I am prepared to discuss as long as you put forward YOUR point of view
EID is fantastic you should see the food, fantastic it is Not just a bland turkey with blander spuds and carrots and shoite Shame you live so far away I would invite you around We actually had turkey 2 weeks ago, first time for me they had some samples at the local halal butchers, I bought one and cooked it myself. bootiful with a foreign twist but not as good as the EID grub
You are OK Fan, you will never convert the GC lot. Better off posting non faith related stuff....... My casino is open 24hrs a day and the only day we close is 25th Dec, my family are all off work so we get together to exchange gifts and treat the kids.... They do the nativity stuff at school, but have no idea about God or his relevance ........ To be honest he has none in our life.
which bit? Your links have a huge article and a clip which is longer than 10 minutes. I will tell you now no way I am reading all thta or watching that You wish to discuss/debate summarise the bits you want answering and i pomise to answer them. cant be fairer than that The discussion is betweenme and you NOT answering Islam and the chambell bloke
I love you too SN just curious though how does the nativity not show some relevance? My kids dont do nativity or christmas assembly/worship/carols etc at school yet they 'know' about christianity and its beliefs etc. even the 4 year old
They just have a jolly sing song and have a little play that the parents go to... No repression hell or guilt drummed into them...
