The current situation is hardly the right time to sell...we need to hit the ground running in close season, not to have a new set of owners.
How do you think Levy’s departure is turning out....was he the problem or the glue holding things together?
Roberto De Zerbi & Johan Lange Watch
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How do you think Levy’s departure is turning out....was he the problem or the glue holding things together?
You are massively underplaying the situation.
The sentences "tried and failed" and "come up short" are doing an absurd amount of heavy lifting in your post.
There is a very strong argument to say that we haven't tried, at least we haven't tried hard enough or with enough common sense.
And there doesn't need to be an argument that we have gone well beyond the parameters of coming up short. I'd apply that to teams like Newcastle and Everton, maybe Villa if they miss out on CL this year.
What we have done isn't just short, it is microscopic.
It's pretty obvious that much of what we are seeing now is the fruit of Levy's loom.
He hired Ange. He supported the nonsense theory of only wanting to sign players who "dreamed" of playing for Spurs. That worked out amazingly. He hired Lange, who hired Frank and Tudor.
He kept the wage bill deliberately lower than it needed to be for years which led to an anemic squad of bang average players, not a single bit of quality anywhere.
The only advantages I could imagine had Levy stayed on is that he would have sacked Frank sooner and not replaced him with Tudor.
The injury position is entirely to blame though. If we had had a few less injuries we would probably be in the top seven and in the quarter finals of the CL. That isn't down to poor decisions by the owners.
We've had an injury crisis for three seasons running now, getting worse year by year.
So either something is very wrong with our medical department, or we tend to sign injury prone players, or both. Or we can blame it on luck and watch in amazement as it happens again next year.
And to be perfectly honest I cannot see where you've plucked your 'probable' outcome from.
We finished 8th and went out in Ro16 in the CL when we had Kane and Son. Both have since left and not been replaced. On what grounds can you see 7th and QF with a full strength squad? I can't see any.
We're a mid table side at best, reduced to a Championship side through injuries.
Most fans were happy with Frank and Lange though. It's easy to claim mistakes with hindsight. Getting half your decisions wrong is entirely normal. 55% right is world class performance.
You and I agree on the salary point. We should be aiming to sign one or two excellent players every year. But almost no one else in football actually does that.
There is no way we can tend to sign injury prone players because that implies a decision making process that can't exist in reality. We replaced Kane with Solanke and Son with Kudos. Both downgrades but exacerbated by injuries. We would likely have beaten Atletico with a full strength team and we only finish outside top 8 when we have an injury crisis so my claim of 7th without one is hardly far fetched.
Plenty of things just aren't remotely true there
- Frank was hired by the Lewises
- Scott Munn pushed both for Ange and Lange
- The lower wage bill is in part due to the stadium loans
- The Lewsies also pushed to bring Paratici back (more on this later)
- Wanting players who actually want to play for the club is a good idea, it avoids Ndombele situations for a start
- It's remarkable how Paratici seems to escape any blame in spite failing at his brief in the summer as he failed to get Gibbs-White or Savinho yet also failed to have any alternatives lined up, then he recommended Tudor
The issue that stems from all the dysfunction from the manager and above is that the squad is just awfully constructed. Too many development players competing for the same positions, too many similar profiles or ones no manager has quite been able to work out. There’s probably only 3-4 ‘foundational’ players in the squad who you'd consider capable of putting in consistent 6-7/10 performances because everyone else is wildly inconsistent and/or constantly disrupted by injuries or suspensions. What follows is a badly formatted summary:
GKs
Vicario. Has always been profiled accurately as a very good shot stopper who is reasonable at everything else except distribution. He's never mentally recovered from being targeted at set pieces last season and his lack of command of his box is exasperated by the chaos in the rest of the team and with the changes in coaching. NO
Kinsky. A masterclass in Spurs recruitment. Sign an extremely promising young keeper, have absolutely no plan to ensure him consistent minutes to continue his development. Shock when a player who has hardly played for 18 months drops clangers. We've set back his career at the elite level by probably 5 years if not destroyed it completely. NO
Austin. Don't even know if he's any good. He's 27 and has never had a serious loan or challenged to start. What other team is forced to keep a bafflingly unambitious academy GK around for that long just because we're miserable at integrating other youth players? NO
FBs
Porro. Has been massively overplayed and occasionally in weird positions (wide CB, RW). Better than he's given credit for defensively, good going forward. Actually seems to care about the fans. YES
Spence. Polar opposite of Porro as a profile (which is it's own issue) but good at what he is good at - he's a lockdown fullback who is also a tremendous athlete but lacks polish in the final 3rd. YES
Udogie. Very good on his day but injuries have massively derailed his progress. No idea if he'll return to the same standards and be able to bear the load of playing consistent elite level football again. NO
Souza. Entirely unproven at this level. NO
Davies. Not worth bothering with as he'll not play for us again.
CBs
Romero. World class on his day but too inconsistent - may also be down to the absolute chaos on the pitch and inconsistencies in selection and playing style. Freelances too much playing up front and switches off too much offensively. Still has discipline issues which are overblown for his rep these days but do cause him to make himself unavailable too often. NO
VdV. Has the superpower of his pace and athleticism but also glaring technical issues defensively (too poor in the air for someone of his stature, not nimble, switches off). Well-documented injury issues may have resolved themselves but not a player you'd be confident relying on for a season of football. NO
Danso. Absolute definition of a bedrock player. Ceiling is lower than Romero/VdV but floor is higher. YES
Dragusin. A poor fit for the PL. Maybe have to be generous because of the long injury but we haven't seen it yet. NO
CMs
Gray. Feels harsh on a young player who has been a shining light recently and shown a tremendous attitude playing so many positions for the club, but pinning everything on a 20yr old feels a bit mad. Has had games in CM where it's all passed him by but is looking much better now. MAYBE
Sarr. At his best, a second-ball winning monster, at his worst, an absolute passenger. Not sure what he is or what his intended role in the team is, and the coaches don't seem to know either. NO
Bergvall. What is he? A deep lying playmaker, a 10, an auxiliary winger? Why can't anyone work it out? He's a rough diamond who needs to play in a specific role for a run of games to work it out. Right now, a NO
Palhinha. You know what you get and if you build the midfield around it it works. We haven't been able to because all our creative players are injured or ****. YES
Bissouma. NO
Bentancur. Feel bad for him but injuries have taken their toll. Never available consistently. NO
Gallagher. Should be a nailed on yes and was signed to be. Somehow a player who hardly ever missed a game has been out with illness a fair bit once he signed. On current showing, NO
Wingers.
Kudus. Has missed too much of his debut season, which isn't his fault, but his bright start had faded by the time of his injury because the team were just too one-dimensional. MAYBE
Kulusevski. Would have been a nailed on yes in the past but now we have no idea what he'll be when he returns, or maybe even if he ever kicks a ball again. NO
Odobert. Showed flashes before his injury but right now a NO
Tel. Tries but not enough end product. NO
AMs
Maddison. Too many knocks and now this ligament. Sometimes disappears in games anyway. NO
Simons. Hasn't fully adapted yet and not convinced the club profiled him accurately anyway. NO
Strikers
Richy. Chaos personified. Convinced he'd score 10-15 a season if he stayed fit and the team wasn't **** but he's not elite. NO
Solanke. Player who was hardly ever injured comes to Spurs and, well, you know the rest. Not convinced he's a consistent top level finisher, but good out of possession. MAYBE
RKM. Only here for a season and it shows. Has all the ingredients but isn't making it work. NO
So there's 4 yes's and a few maybes but it's not nearly enough. Two of the players who I would consider solid want to play in the same position, and the effectiveness of some of the others is blunted by the fact that the players around them don't complement them.
I started thinking about this post because you look at that lot down the road - Arteta has had a good few years (and a healthy pile of cash) to build a squad of players with a very defined game model who are just very good at doing that thing well enough that it works. It isn't pretty and it doesn't always win games but it wins enough of them.
We on the other hand have, post-Poch, wildly swung between different managerial personalities and game models, with no consistent thesis of what football we want to play, nobody consistently profiling players or planning ahead and now we're in serious short term trouble with a very real prospect of relegation, and very serious long term trouble because the club is a basket case and the squad needs open heart surgery. Everything is broken from the top to the bottom.
GKs
Vicario. Has always been profiled accurately as a very good shot stopper who is reasonable at everything else except distribution. He's never mentally recovered from being targeted at set pieces last season and his lack of command of his box is exasperated by the chaos in the rest of the team and with the changes in coaching. NO
Kinsky. A masterclass in Spurs recruitment. Sign an extremely promising young keeper, have absolutely no plan to ensure him consistent minutes to continue his development. Shock when a player who has hardly played for 18 months drops clangers. We've set back his career at the elite level by probably 5 years if not destroyed it completely. NO
Austin. Don't even know if he's any good. He's 27 and has never had a serious loan or challenged to start. What other team is forced to keep a bafflingly unambitious academy GK around for that long just because we're miserable at integrating other youth players? NO
FBs
Porro. Has been massively overplayed and occasionally in weird positions (wide CB, RW). Better than he's given credit for defensively, good going forward. Actually seems to care about the fans. YES
Spence. Polar opposite of Porro as a profile (which is it's own issue) but good at what he is good at - he's a lockdown fullback who is also a tremendous athlete but lacks polish in the final 3rd. YES
Udogie. Very good on his day but injuries have massively derailed his progress. No idea if he'll return to the same standards and be able to bear the load of playing consistent elite level football again. NO
Souza. Entirely unproven at this level. NO
Davies. Not worth bothering with as he'll not play for us again.
CBs
Romero. World class on his day but too inconsistent - may also be down to the absolute chaos on the pitch and inconsistencies in selection and playing style. Freelances too much playing up front and switches off too much offensively. Still has discipline issues which are overblown for his rep these days but do cause him to make himself unavailable too often. NO
VdV. Has the superpower of his pace and athleticism but also glaring technical issues defensively (too poor in the air for someone of his stature, not nimble, switches off). Well-documented injury issues may have resolved themselves but not a player you'd be confident relying on for a season of football. NO
Danso. Absolute definition of a bedrock player. Ceiling is lower than Romero/VdV but floor is higher. YES
Dragusin. A poor fit for the PL. Maybe have to be generous because of the long injury but we haven't seen it yet. NO
CMs
Gray. Feels harsh on a young player who has been a shining light recently and shown a tremendous attitude playing so many positions for the club, but pinning everything on a 20yr old feels a bit mad. Has had games in CM where it's all passed him by but is looking much better now. MAYBE
Sarr. At his best, a second-ball winning monster, at his worst, an absolute passenger. Not sure what he is or what his intended role in the team is, and the coaches don't seem to know either. NO
Bergvall. What is he? A deep lying playmaker, a 10, an auxiliary winger? Why can't anyone work it out? He's a rough diamond who needs to play in a specific role for a run of games to work it out. Right now, a NO
Palhinha. You know what you get and if you build the midfield around it it works. We haven't been able to because all our creative players are injured or ****. YES
Bissouma. NO
Bentancur. Feel bad for him but injuries have taken their toll. Never available consistently. NO
Gallagher. Should be a nailed on yes and was signed to be. Somehow a player who hardly ever missed a game has been out with illness a fair bit once he signed. On current showing, NO
Wingers.
Kudus. Has missed too much of his debut season, which isn't his fault, but his bright start had faded by the time of his injury because the team were just too one-dimensional. MAYBE
Kulusevski. Would have been a nailed on yes in the past but now we have no idea what he'll be when he returns, or maybe even if he ever kicks a ball again. NO
Odobert. Showed flashes before his injury but right now a NO
Tel. Tries but not enough end product. NO
AMs
Maddison. Too many knocks and now this ligament. Sometimes disappears in games anyway. NO
Simons. Hasn't fully adapted yet and not convinced the club profiled him accurately anyway. NO
Strikers
Richy. Chaos personified. Convinced he'd score 10-15 a season if he stayed fit and the team wasn't **** but he's not elite. NO
Solanke. Player who was hardly ever injured comes to Spurs and, well, you know the rest. Not convinced he's a consistent top level finisher, but good out of possession. MAYBE
RKM. Only here for a season and it shows. Has all the ingredients but isn't making it work. NO
So there's 4 yes's and a few maybes but it's not nearly enough. Two of the players who I would consider solid want to play in the same position, and the effectiveness of some of the others is blunted by the fact that the players around them don't complement them.
I started thinking about this post because you look at that lot down the road - Arteta has had a good few years (and a healthy pile of cash) to build a squad of players with a very defined game model who are just very good at doing that thing well enough that it works. It isn't pretty and it doesn't always win games but it wins enough of them.
We on the other hand have, post-Poch, wildly swung between different managerial personalities and game models, with no consistent thesis of what football we want to play, nobody consistently profiling players or planning ahead and now we're in serious short term trouble with a very real prospect of relegation, and very serious long term trouble because the club is a basket case and the squad needs open heart surgery. Everything is broken from the top to the bottom.
Lots of indications that Tudor has already gone, due to his family bereavement.
I therefore expect the club to wait for the eve of the Sunderland game to announce his replacement....
I therefore expect the club to wait for the eve of the Sunderland game to announce his replacement....
As quickly as that?Lots of indications that Tudor has already gone, due to his family bereavement.
I therefore expect the club to wait for the eve of the Sunderland game to announce his replacement....
I guess a lot depends on how you’d define ambition.
Off the pitch they’ve certainly made their mark; a shiny new (soulless) bowl and a state of the art training ground is certainly the foundations for a club with strong intentions.
But then on the pitch, I genuinely struggle to think of a truly ambitious footballing statement in the last 10 or so years. A player where every single Spurs fan was united in excitement with a sort of “holy ****” vibe to it. Weve spent a fair amount of money and we’ve added some good players don't get me wrong but so have Villa, Newcastle etc. but we were supposedly led to believe we’d be truly challenging the Prem’s elite that we had a taste of under Poch for a few years, instead we’re now on course to be challenging Derby and Watford for the Championship next season. I don’t think it’s too far fetched or wrong to say that considering the talk from the club, the foundation building off the pitch and the (ridiculous) rise in prices for fans, we should be expecting to see a Berbatov or Modric or van der Vaart type signing every other year or so.
Agreed. I for one will not be too upset if the vast majority of the current squad piss off in the summer.
All bang average over inflated egos in my opinion that have no idea of what they are about to let happen.
All bang average over inflated egos in my opinion that have no idea of what they are about to let happen.
Romero and Kulusevski would probably be the only two I’d be disappointed to see leave (possibly Porro too) but I’ve already accepted the former’s off whilst the latter might be finished in general, truly think he’s got a Ledley type of injury.
I've never rated Romero as highly as you. Technically very gifted player, but his shortcomings are both obvious and not improving.
There are several clear reasons why he's never been seriously linked with anyone better than Atletico. He isn't an elite player.
Taking it as a given that Kulu is sadly finished as a professional, I am now officially done with the entire squad. Not a single departure would make me feel any perceptible sadness. I had a soft spot for VDV and believed for a while he had the capacity to be something special, but his performances since January have been nothing short of disgraceful.
I think he’s a top defender, in this market anyway but that essentially is the problem; the majority of the top/ world class defenders right now wouldn’t make the top twenty of ten or so years ago. There’s a decline in quality across the board, I think Juve have epitomised that, boasted Chiellini, Bonucci and Barzagli at one point, now have Lloyd Kelly as a regular starter, a player not so long ago we wanted as a third choice.
I actually wouldn’t be surprised if Romero ends up at either Madrid in the summer, he’s tailor-made for Simeone but there’s been loose links he’d replace Rudiger at Real.
Decent summary of the squad.
Agree with all of them apart from Spence, who I still can't see what all the fuss was about. Bang average player who seems to think he's the second coming of Djalma Santos.
Kudus doesn't play on the same flank as Son. He was signed because Kulusevski was injured and Frank didn't want Johnson.
Pure guesswork about Atletico. They didn't come out of third gear in either leg because they didn't have to, so we'll never know.
We could equally make the argument that we only finished 5th under Ange because we had no European football to juggle, but with that added to the equation we are destined to finish much lower, irrespective of injuries.
I personally think that's about right tbh.
- No Euro and no injuries: 5-7th
- No Euro and injuries/Euro and no injuries: 8th-12th
- Euro and injuries: Relegation
I've said this a few times.
Our signings in the 90s were more exciting than they are now, which is ridiculous.
It's damning that the biggest names we've attracted since moving to the new stadium have been Bale on loan and Perisic at the end of his career.
Interesting selection there....no big club was in for Berbatov and Modric when we were and van der Vaart was surplus to requirements at Madrid. They are also the three counter examples people give as driven by Levy when I say he doesn't interfere in football decisions. I don't really think they were more exciting signings than Son, Eriksen and Perisic were. Or how Simons, Kudus and Gray could turn out given time.