For decades the world blindly advocated a two-state solution, including when Israel was led by relative moderates like Olmert and Barak, and it did so willfully ignoring the fact that the other side of that solution included a terrorist group on the one hand, and a pathologically corrupt party on the other. It is because everything the Palestinians do wrong is causally linked (eventually) to Israel, as if to say 'oh but they had no choice', that the Palestinians - leaders or otherwise - have never had any impetus to strive for internal change. The aid money keeps flowing higher than any other recipient across the globe per capita, irrespective of what the Palestinians did with it. Use it to construct 500km of tunnels? No problem. Use it to pay monthly stipends to families of suicide bombers? That's fine. Use it to teach open anti-Semitism to school children? The more the merrier. It's all Israel's fault anyway. The prevailing wisdom has for some reason always been that given their own state, they would automatically and quickly transform into a peaceful democracy, but this theory is rubbished by most historical evidence and is also plainly underpinned by the idea that it is somehow Israel's fault that Palestinian leaders have never showed an inkling of a desire for reform. So, that said, I totally disagree with you on this. Unilaterally implementing a two-state solution at any point in the past 20 years would have been utterly ruinous for Israel, not aligning with its interests as you claim.
****ing this thread has progressed some since I last looked at it. Not reading back can guess how it all pans out. Nice wall... please log in to view this image
... my bad - must have misjudged Israel - there was me thinking they might perhaps have been jailing countless Palestinians indefinitely and without charges or proper trials for years now - and illegally occupying, establishing and encouraging illegal settlements in the West Bank against International Law ... but now you've explained that it's really just ALL Palestinians having a poor attitude towards, and being unjustifiably suspicious of, Israeli intentions and that that is the only real obstacle to a lasting peace - it makes perfect sense
It’s not like Israel doesn’t have its fair share of religious extremists either. Anybody remember who assinated Yitzak Rabin ? In fact, a fair amount of those religious extremists now prop up Netanyahu and are in a govt. Actual ministers of the Israeli cabinet openly calling to burn Gaza to the ground, permanently expel the Palestinian population and take Gaza and the west bank for Jews. Let’s also not forget who helped to fund and enable Hamas and the extremists on the Palestinian side, the same Netanyahu who is to this very day arming groups with links to Islamic state. Because he wanted the only viable alternative, the Palestinian authority to FAIL. So yes, we’ve not seen a ‘peaceful democracy’ emerge, because it has been thwarted at every turn. In the meantime, Palestinians live under occupation, subjugation, have their rights stripped away, their borders controlled and have the foot of Israel on their neck constantly. And people wonder why it doesn’t function as a peaceful democracy. Bottom line here is that the Palestinians have the right to self determination. Israel are illegally occupying their territory and like the Jews were granted, the Palestinians also have the right to their own state in the region.
No, you must have misread or misunderstood what I wrote as I didn't say any of that. Israel has made and sadly continues to make many mistakes. Those mistakes are frequently assessed and judged in the UN, international courtrooms and media of the world. Endlessly in fact, to a level of scrutiny and exactitude I haven't seen applied to any other conflict in human history. And yet, I hold my hands up and acknowledge that Israel should be criticised for those actions. My point is that criticism is almost never aimed at the other side, which has created and entrenched a culture of blamelessness. The Palestinians have been totally infantilised, to the point that we get posters on here arguing that Oct 7th was basically Israel's fault and an inevitable outcome of its treatment of Gaza. They say this and argue it despite the fact that it is a theory contradicted by Hamas themselves when they launched that attack. Such is the willful blindness in the west.
Depressing ... US blocks another UN resolution (the 6th it has blocked) that called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and the immediate release of all hostages... because the resolution didn't condemn Hamas actions sufficiently nor assert Israel's right to defend itself strongly enough So Genocide continues ... but effectively 'by grammar' now - semantics blindly passing over the carnage still taking place ... looks like the deaths of hundreds more Palestinian women and children are not as newsworthy in the good old 'land of the free' than the death of one Trump supporting social media personality ... What a ****ed up nation ....
Estonia airspace violated by three Russian jets for 12 mins. Putin clearly poking NATO - demonstrating he can go where he wants and testing NATO resources to do anything about it. Suggestions he may be drawing NATO's intentions away from Ukraine, and make it rethink its priorities. Not forgetting UK jets were recently deployed to Poland, alongside aircraft already there from Denmark, France, Germany and Italy. https://www.itv.com/news/2025-09-15/uk-to-deploy-raf-jets-to-poland-after-russian-drone-incursion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eastern_Sentry https://www.euronews.com/2025/09/19/russian-fighter-jets-violated-estonias-airspace-authorities-say
He did this to the Turks some years when the Russians were aperating in Syria . after a couple of incidents the Turks just downed the next one . The incursions stopped .
I did wonder after the drone incursions, how long do you put up with this ****. I was listening to the report on it and they said Putin would clearly have known about this intentional incursion because of the way the Russian military operate. Suggestions of how important is Ukraine to you about it. I think at some point someone is going to have to dish out a slap as with the Turks that you mentioned.
what they need was the nukes they gave up for a treaty with Russia guaranteeing their territorial integrity
Problem with nukes is no-one wants to be the first to use them because the Earth itself might not survive or at least take centuries to heal itself
That is the premise of the 'ultimate deterrent' mutual obliteration. It's a horrible and sobering stance, but it does seemed to have worked so far. Not that I'm promoting the proliferation of Nuclear weapons, but I agree with Solid, that if Ukraine were to have the nukes that they gave up in good faith when they left what was the USSR, then Putin would probably have though twice about invading them.
I just like the idea of a couple of WW2 bombs making the Kremlin And Putin disappear, as long as he lives this war will continue until he really pushes his luck and provokes the West into a war no one can really win
If Israel feel able to take out what they see as Terrorists on foreign soil, then there's a precedent for Ukraine (if they had the weaponry) to target the man who has invaded and brought war to their country. It's difficult to know what would happen next, but I think a lot of Russia would be pleased to see the back of Putin too.
all the evidence suggests Putin has the support of the majority of Russians helps of course if you control / neuter all the media though he was winning even before that
