Revisionist bollocks. And gaslighting at its very worst. It's like trying to blame the Jewish Poles for invading Nazi Germany ffs
I just think, and I don't blame Ukranians for this, that Russia would have just waltzed in without too much of a fight, not saying they've not got brave men, they have, probably a lot braver than us Brits. In my world as I looked on it, was if Ukraine had rolled over, there would have been few deaths. The thing that is bugging me more than anything in this is not Ukraine, it's all the people outside from America and Europe who have their own interests, and don't tell me this is all about freedom, Trump is mugging Ukraine openly, but it's no different to what everyone else was doing silently. Europe got complacent, in fact it got ****ing lazy, and the Ukranians are also suffering because of our own ignorance. We've had politicians in this country who have taken us for mugs, and still take us for mugs, so when I see the young men of Ukraine forced to go and fight on the front line it makes me sick to the guts of everything we have created, and not created. Instead of ploughing billions into Ukraine we should have been spending that money long before now to improve strength for all, now we are paying the higher cost at the expense of a million injured or killed. Putin is 100% to blame, but it's us to blame for it ever happening.
And in which one of those examples you've given was the victim a UK citizen who had criticized the UK govt? 'America did this, America did that' at least find a ****ing example that has some kind of relationship to the point in general if you're going to admit defeat by using 'whatabout'. Clown.
**** off Ern I'm bored with you now, ****. and as I said earlier if you could ****ing read, there are always extremes.
I actually said the same sort of things when all this started out. I asked if by helping Ukraine, are we just delaying the inevitable and causing more deaths- there's no way Ukraine can actually win this. Turns out, Ukraine was better able to defend themselves than I, or anyone else thought. (at least when given a little help) But if someone were to invade Britain (we will use the US instead of Russia as you hate the US more)- say if the US were to invade Britain, would you want to just give up without a fight and let US have the country because there would be fewer deaths that way? I wouldn't. I would want Britain to fight back and defend itself rather than become taken over by another country. It's perfectly understandable Ukraine felt the same way about Russia.
Thing is Milk my point has been all along, that Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union until 1991. It's as I said to you earlier, would America be willing to give up one of its states, no because it's not allowed. Much like the conditions it applied on Cuba. So a USSR president gave away some land, and now a Russian President wants it back again. But as a British example, Scotland wants independence but we don't give it and I think it was 62% of scots voted to Remain in the EU....so what about their freedoms or does this only roll one way.
It's a measure of where we now are that a prelude to such a thing, the invasion of Canada by the US, has now gone from the absolutely unthinkable to a remote possibility. That is the world we now live in. Think on that. It is now not impossible that the US would find a pretext to attack the UK. And do you know what? We've got Reform ****ers over here who'd welcome it, blame Starmer, and go to Mar-a-Largo afterwards to pick up their quisling rewards from the Orange Rapist. We're ****ed. But hey-ho, let's finish on a nice, happy song about ****ing in the afternoon, and don't worry to much about skyrockets in flight.
I fully believe everyone has a right to self determination. If say, the people of California, or Texas, or any other state wanted independence I would say they have the right to independence. If Ukraine wants independence, they have the right to independence. I believe Scotland, if they so wished, or Catalonia, etc. I've always believed this. Heck, if Crimea had really wanted to join Russia I would have granted them the right to secede and join Russia too (rather than the sham elections held with Russians marching into town). There's obviously a limit to this... one man can't declare himself independent, or one village declare itself independent... the line is probably blurry depending on scenario, but I would say has to be at least county sized to be relevant. There is of course one major caveat here too- Ukraine was ALREADY independent, so it's not even like they were trying to break away. UK used to own a third of Africa, most of North America, the Indian subcontinent, etc... I certainly wouldn't say the UK has even the slightest right to try and invade any of those places now. Just as Russia has no right to invade Ukraine. For what it's worth, I think countries are better and fare better as large blocks, so Scotland and England for example are both better together... I just would recognise, Scotland has the right to independence if they so decided- even though I would think it a mistake... just like UK was better off in EU, but had the right to drop out because that's what the people (foolishly ) voted for.
Milk you still seem to be missing my point, America would not allow one of its states to break free. Didn't people get arrested over the Catalonia thing, I'm sure they did for holding their own polls or something, a few years back I think. I AGREE with you that Ukraine should be allowed Independence, I'm arguing it from the Russian or Putin perspective. I also think Scotland should get independence, but they will not.
Not missing the point. America might very well try to stop independence, as did Spain... that doesn't make it right. I don't subscribe to because someone did something bad/would do something bad, everyone should. Just as an aside... America's previous war of independence for the South, I do think they were in the right to fight against. Because the majority of the South (if one includes the enslaved people as human beings, as one should) did not want independence from the US. Those seeking independence were in the minority.
No it dosen't make it right, but unless America plans on changing its constitution, it can't really point over there, but will. And look how it treated Cuba for decades.
There are times I don't put my eyewear on when woodworking. You better bet I admonish my kids when I catch my kids doing something that requires protective eyewear and they're not wearing them. It's hypocritical but the right thing to do.
Yeah and no. I know you hate my history, but bear with me on this for a paragraph or two; your Scotland analogy (or Ireland if you'd said that too) is spot on. As I pointed out earlier, Ukraine was once an integral part of the Russian empire, but so, at times, has Poland and parts of Turkey been, let alone the Baltic states and Caucasus countries. Autonomous entities though that, when the USSR was formed, were then separate, autonomous soviets within the Union. So, Putin's imperialist dreams aside, it's more valid to think of Ukraine breaking away from a union in much the same way as Ireland partly did, and Scotland had the chance to do. But yes, imagine all of Ireland did, but then we went back in years later and took back another 6 counties to go with the 6 we had? Or Scotland went indy and we (England) took back the Shetlands because of the oil? I bow to what you said about individual US states though, except for one thing - Russia agreed to cede Ukraine and signed treaties accordingly. It broke those treaties. Russia agreed to stop at Crimea in 2014, and signed a treaty thereof, that it promptly broke a year later. In 1861 the US never agreed to secede the Southern states at all. I'll leave it at that now, but interesting stuff as Milky will tell that Texas, for instance, saw its arse after the 2020 election and was openly talking apart seceding again. As my Chinese ancestors would curse in a passive-aggressive manner, may you live in interesting times. I promise I'm now off here for a week.
Cracking, typically British film this if you ever get the chance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passport_to_Pimlico
I respect your points, but what one arm gives away another will take, and that's precisely what's happened in the case of the Ukraine. Why are we so bothered about Ukraine, because I don't believe for one minute it's because we care about their freedoms, it's all to do with its resources and it's logistical military position with Russia. EU couldn't move fast enough wanting to bring them onboard, while pissing off other waiting countries in the process. I suppose the crux of this for me is that I do not believe for one minute that we are doing it for the right reason of Ukraines freedom, and to me, that makes us as bad as Putin.
There's two sides to every story and I can see all the bad that people point out about Russian/Putin, and I have to say it but America and Europe can be a devious bunch of ****s to. It's just working out whose the real baddy in all this, and all I see is Trump and the EU rubbing it's hands together, in getting all those minerals and not to forget it's the worlds bread basket... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ritical-minerals-and-why-does-trump-want-them
Hmm, as my sister put it years ago when I pointed out our different attitudes towards Ukrainian and Palestinian refugees 'One are white Christians, the other are brown Muslims'. Crude, but that's how she thinks. Not saying this is you at all, or this a valid viewpoint (in fact, you seem to be stating the exact opposite, tbf), but the fact that it's on the European mainland seems to be a big thing. That said, you're right - we never seemed this worked up 30 years ago when Serbia was running rampant through the Balkans - I wonder why?
And I criticized that a few pages back. I do think it's reasonable for a country if they're helping defend Ukraine to try and get a few concessions (as long as not fleecing Ukraine under duress) but it has to be something Ukraine agrees with.
