lol Barca really do hate us.

Barca may have been trying to sign the 2 lads but that was in Oct 09. Cesc himself was signed on 11 Sept 03, 6 years earlier. Its called retaliation.

 

my point was they tried to do exactly the same with our players before, so how can they criticize us?

And anyway, they weren't bothered about Cesc at the time really, only now they're trying to make out like they were.

 

I don't accept the view that Barca never cared for Cesc leaving. Carles Rexach former coach and tech director of Barca said that "the reality is that Cesc left Barcelona because he wanted to,' and that Cesc had said: "I'm the one who wants to leave".

Carles Rexach additionally puts some of the reasoning for Cesc leaving at the introduction of foreign coaches rather than the club itself. Men like Louis van Gaal and Frank Rijkaard came to Barca and brought in a great deal of players from Holland but didn't rely on the youth that Barca had invested in and had coming through. Even Messi had to wait for his turn.

Furthermore there is the element of Arsenal itself: Rob Draper writing in the Daily Mail said on 13/02/11 that:

"Arsenal's Spanish scout, Frannie Cagigao, had spotted Fabregas and when the player was watched it was obvious within minutes that he was exceptional. It was then impressed on Fabregas that his development might be slowed at Barca, whereas at Arsenal he would be thrust into the first team by Arsene Wenger."

Interesting that it is implied that Cagigao or other influences from Arsenal persuaded him to move away from Barca. Money does talk as does the lure of immediate first team football.

But Cesc did move to London and the rest is history though the question remains will Fabregas be in London come August 2011 since the respect between Guardiola and Fabregas is great. When Fabregas was feeling down in his early teens following the divorce of his parents, his youth-team coach Rodolfo Borrell, arranged a gift to improve his mood. The gift was a shirt signed by Guardiola, then the Barca captain. On the shirt, Guardiola had written: 'One day you will be the Barca No. 4!'

Time will tell.

 

And their youth academy isn't actually as good as everyone makes out, as they signed many players who they lay claim to, such as Valdes, Puyol, Iniesta and Pedro, from other clubs at the age 0f 16/17 (the comments shown at the bottom of the article I linked to in my first post talk about this).

And when you add into that the fact that they sold Piqué to United before resigning him, and their academy looks slightly less brilliant.

Ajax, on the other hand...

 

Agree Ajax is superb.

 

But that's the same with Arsenal isn't it? Didn't Cesc, Walcott, Ramsey, Gibbs, Denilson and Bendtner all join when they were aged between 15 and 18? Off the top of my head, Wilshire and Cashley are the only ones I can think of who have come through Arsenal's academy to the first team in the last decade. Barca do at least have Xavi, Valdes and Krkic from their academy in the current first team squad. And Messi and Iniesta both joined Barca around the age of 12, before they'd had much experience in any other youth set up.

But in general, all top clubs would jump at the chance to snatch a good prospect from another team's academy if they could. I can't see anything wrong with it - until they've signed a professional contract it should all be up to the player. T'was funny that it was Guardiola's brother who got Arsenal the latest one tho'

 

yes, but we ain't the ones claiming it's morally wrong

I'm fairly certain that Valdes and Iniesta were in their mid/late teens when they signed, although I could be wrong.

And surely it's no worse signing a prospect at the age of 12 from one youth academy who is their prize asset than signing a 16 year old unlikely to make a huge contribution to the club?

 

I'm sure if Barca came in and nicked one of the top prospects from your academy Arsene and co would throw a similar wobbly...but then again so would SAF and every other manager of a club with a half decent academy...

Valdes maybe, but Iniesta joined from some provincial 7-a-side youth club when he was 12 - not exactly a true academy. I remember reading about it after he scored the goal to knock Chelsea out of the CL in 2009 - apparently Guardiola was coaching him in an U14 or U15 tournament and told him he'd soon be winning tournaments for the senior team.

I don't see any difference for the club that the player leaves, but from the point of view of the player there is a hell of a difference between joining a top academy at the age of 12 and joining one at the age of 16. Barca will have made a much greater contribution to the development of Iniesta, than they did to the development of Puyol, for example.

 

Fortunately, we give youngsters more game time than Barca (unless they're exceptional, but even Messi had to wait 'til he was 18/19, whereas Fab was playing for us 40 times a season when he was barely 17) and so they are less likely to want to leave.

Anyway, Toral has been saying for a year he wants to come to England (largely down to his mother, I would presume).

 

That's true in some cases, although Bentley only got 9 games for you before requesting a transfer for 1st team football and Wilshire has only broken through in the league this year. I also think Barca right now have a stronger overall squad than Arsenal, so some of their youngsters don't see their way into the 1st team any time soon, but probably see more chance of some 1st team football at Arsenal. Toral in particular is bound to think he's more likely to displace Eboue, Denilson or Rosicky than Busquets or Mascherano.

 

Exactly.

Take Jeffren as an example.

He's 23, but has only just broken into their first team, and is still only a squad player.

He was regarded as being a similarly talented youngster to Fab, however has been stuck in their "B" team while Cesc has come over here, is club captain and our best player, has won a World Cup and European Championship and been nominated for numerous awards. It ultimately all comes down to the chances Fab has been given, whereas Jeffren has had to wait for the likes of Henry, Ronaldinho, Pedro and Villa to miss a couple of games before he could even make their squad.

Pedro is another good example, I believe he is 22 and is clearly a very good player, but only broke into the first team last season, when Henry was **** and Ibrahimovic was their first choice striker.

If a youngster comes to us, we have about 13 top quality players in the squad, and 12/13 either solid but nothing special, or old and **** (in the case of Squillaci) or just good prospects. A player will feel more comfortable trying to break into that kind of a set up (and we play more games than Barca in a season, quite often [not always, of course]) than at Barca. We also give kids chances in a fair few games usually, even if they're nothing special, so they can show what they can do.

At Arsenal, you say Wilshere has had to wait until this year, but ulitmately, is a key player at the age of 19, and was at the age of 18, and made his début at the age of 16. At Barca, Messi, the finest in the World and arguably ever, made his début at the age of 17, and had to wait until he was 19 to be a first team regular, putting him a year/6 months behind Jack.

As for Bentley, he was fairly good, but not a huge talent. He looked capable of being an Arsenal player and England International, but didn't get bags of game time (although still more than he may have at other big clubs) and left. The rest is history; he's a good player at Brum, playing regularly for a mid-table side with little creativity.

 

Bentley let himself down largely because of his attitude. If he had stayed at Arsenal, I think he could have gone on to become a great player. As it is, he shone at Blackburn and now struggles at Spurs.

I think players will always get a chance at Arsenal, because wenger has a policy of nurturing players and they know it. This is why players like Cesc, Merida, Miquel and Toral chose Arsenal over Barca