The Politics Thread

I have read the war thread...generally I tend to stay out of it for the sake of my MH.

I only responded to point 4 because you used it as an example of extremist views which it is not

 

We should be able to separate the fact that a poster is also a moderator.

They joined the site to post their thoughts but also took up the voluntary task of moderating the board.

I see no problem with them having an opinion and commenting on it. They are not politicians who hold such powers as to influence the masses like in real society. Even if their opinions are disagreeable, it matters not, it’s one individual amongst all us individuals and their moderating tasks and responsibilities should not be used against them to indirectly silence them.

 

https://bsky.app/profile/davidosland.bsky.social/post/3lb5iiumlwc2f

...so yeah, when will this site get Bluesky integration?

 

Israel is far, far from perfect. Of that there is no question.
But I think it is an insult to those who suffered under apartheid in South Africa to use that expression so casually.

Again, if you'd like to discuss it, with pleasure. If not no worries, I'll go find something to wind Fosse and Pinkie up with instead.

 

I'm sure that our press will make something out of the fact that Rachel Thieves has had to change her Linkedin profile after it emerged that her claims of being an economist at the Royal Bank of Scotland was a lie, she merely worked in the mortgages department for Halifax...

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You previously suggested that my own failure to support my comments somewhat undermined my ability to form those opinions....
I was lucky enough to work with both Mandela and other senior members of the ANC between 1989-1992 and maintain contact with several from that time. They certainly view the Israeli policies as regards the Palestinian people to amount to a form of Apartheid, described as institutionalised racial segregation, but at the very least effectively amounting to an authoritarian political culture which ensures that Israel dominates politically, socially, and economically. Hence the wholesale support for Palestine from the SA Government today.
And for the record, I also worked with the PLO representatives in London around the same period and subsequently,, from 1998-2002, was a senior executive for a major tech multinational based in and covering the ME region (including Israel), so I think that I was able to to assimilate sufficient information to form an opinion on the current barbaric actions of the Israeli regime.

 

I think it would be constructive if, instead of citing what other people think about Israel without going into details, you go into specific details and explain the ways in which Israel is an apartheid state on par with that which existed in South Africa.

It is literally impossible to have an interesting and engaging discussion or debate if I am constantly faced with reports of what other people have said about the matter. I get this constantly from HBIC and the moderator I've mentioned.

Stand on your own two feet, and let's let logic and reason rule the day, not random twitter feeds, not individual politicians talking about isolated incidents, not even political parties that have gone on to waste the opportunity of a generation in driving what could be a magnificent country into the ground through avarice and corruption.

What do you believe, and why?

If your answer to that is: "I believe Israel is apartheid because the ANC says so", our conversation offers about as much contribution as Tanguy Ndombele.

 

I actually told you that this was MY assessment from my personal experience, FFS! ("so I think that I was able to to assimilate sufficient information to form an opinion on the current barbaric actions of the Israeli regime") And the definitions I referred to are those that are uniformally agreed and are quite appropriate for both regimes.
I gave you specifics as to why that opinion and assessment has some credibility. And you were the one to question the Apartheid analogy. If the opinion of the victims of SA Apartheid is that they are happy to agree with the term applying to Palestine then I would suggest that's a reasonable starting point.
So, a bit less of this 'stand on your own two feet' bollox and start explaining why your opinion should prevail. Otherwise it looks like as soon as you are challenged you revert to personal insult.

 

Actually, enough of this ****olology. I'm out!

 

Unless I have missed it, in which case I apologise, I am yet to read you describe one tangible example of apartheid in practice. For example, we could discuss the roadblocks in the west bank under the scope of apartheid. That might well be an interesting discussion and you might well be pleasantly surprised to learn my opinion on them.

Until now, all I've read is an argument from theory.

If you have personal experiences, please share the details of them and I will almost certainly choose to explore them further to better understand them. Why not share them?

Right now I can't further understand anything because you've provided nothing of actual substance.

I think the ANC are a cabal of corrupt leeches, you might think they're the gold standard in public opinion. The conversation ends there. No value added and we still haven't described a single way in which Israel is an apartheid state.

And I'm afraid that the burden of proof does not lie with me. If I were to log on here and make a sweeping statement about a country or group of people, for example: "ethnicity X has a major problem with stealing", the onus is totally on me to explain and justify my position, not on the reader or listener who is taken aback by my statement.

You, Spurf, RCL and others have made the exact same assertion. It is a sweeping assertion that portrays an entire nation as among the most vile and politically reprehensible in human history. The onus is on you to back that up with tangible argument, but you won't.

On this occasion there was nothing in my response that comes close to a personal insult. I apologised in a previous post but will not do so now as I don't believe there is anything to apologise for.

It's pretty clear that no one on this thread has been challenged in any serious way for a very long time, and as a result it has slipped into a sycophantic and somewhat disappointing over-generalisation of all things, making vast and highly contentious statements without citing actual examples that can be discussed in a constructive and mature way.

And so with a genuine sense of astonishment, I will leave this thread to return to the echo chamber it was, and return to the PL board politics thread which - staggeringly - offers exponentially better discussion and I have personally learned an enormous amount from those who post there.

 

Since the ANC has been mentioned, is this a good time to bring to the table the ongoing investigation under the Magnitsky Act which alleges that South Africa lodged its case against Israel at the ICJ in return for a huge payment by the government of Iran which would clear a mountain of ANC debt, following a clandestine visit there by foreign minister at the time, Naledi Pandor?

Or is it only ok to allege that Israel controls various foreign policy through bribes?

 

"Hoaxes"? Really, **** For Brains? "Hoaxes"?

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UK cheeses miss out on international prize after getting stuck in customs
This. Is. A. Disgrace.
https://www.theguardian.com/food/20...national-prize-after-getting-stuck-in-customs

 

Sorry but you show me one example of me saying anything negative about any group of people in the way you have accused me of. I have criticised the Israeli state. That don't make me anti semitic.
If you're gonna accused me of something then do so correctly instead of making bollocks up.

I explained I tend to stay out of politics chat for mental health reasons. You lying about me is a good example of why I stay away from it.

Firstly, you owe me an apology for insituating I am anti semitic or have said anything anti semitic.
Secondly stop trying to include me in your row with others.

 

You have on multiple occasions called Israel an apartheid state. I believe this to be a grave and serious accusation that warrants further explanation. It is disingenuous to differentiate between the Israeli 'state' and huge numbers of Israeli 'people' who logically live in, benefit from, perpetuate and support that apartheid state. Furthermore, the boycotts and exclusions you openly call for will harm and punish not just the Israeli 'state' but the Israeli people too. This too is a grave and serious position to take that in my opinion warrants further explanation.

There is a world of difference between criticism and portraying a country as akin to one of the most reprehensible political systems in human history.

That's all I've said. Not a word of a lie in that. Didn't call you anti-semitic once. As far as I can tell from my exchanges with you over the years, you are probably the most kind-hearted person on the forum and I don't believe you to have a racist bone in your body.

But that does not detract from the fact that you have openly taken very strong positions on this thread, which I have invited you to discuss further.

If you're not up for that, my advice is don't post them in the first place.

 

@Citizen Kane.

If you wish to imply I racist supply proof.

"And I'm afraid that the burden of proof does not lie with me. If I were to log on here and make a sweeping statement about a country or group of people, for example: "ethnicity X has a major problem with stealing", the onus is totally on me to explain and justify my position, not on the reader or listener who is taken aback by my statement.

You, Spurf, RCL and others have made the exact same assertion. It is a sweeping assertion that portrays an entire nation as among the most vile and politically reprehensiblein human history. The onus is on you to back that upwith tangible argument, but you won't."

You wrote the above.

The first paragraph compares some spouting racist **** and lies about an ethnic or religious group of people.

I have NEVER done that with Jewish people or Israeli's.

I have criticised the Israeli government. That ain't anti Jewish.

Just like criticising Boris Jihnsons Government ain't anti white or anti British.

I only responded to you saying that likening Israeli Government actions to Apartheid S Africa was extremist politics.
Yet you have continued to drag me into you diatribes and have lied to do so even though I made it clear that I am staying out of the other stuff cos of my MH.

I have been extremely clear in my stance throughout this thread and haven't been personally insulting.

Your lies are stressful for me as it is a personal attack using a lie about me being racist against Jewish people. I stated I stay away from stuff cos of stress in my life and I started a mental health thread. So with all due respect leave me the **** alone.

Hopefully this ain't too ****ing subtle for even you to understand ffs.

 

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My sincerest apologies. Reading that back, my own sentence structure is to blame and I can see where the confusion has perhaps arisen.

My paragraph: "If I were to log on here and make a sweeping statement about a country or group of people.." etc. is made in reference to myself, i.e. if I were to theoretically do that, I wouldn't complain if the burden of proof were put on me, rather than the reader. Point finished. Big separation needed here but I neglected to make one.

The next paragraph definitely needed to be structured or clarified better. When I say "You, Spurf, RCL and others have made the exact same assertion..." etc., I am referring to your shared opinion that Israel is an apartheid state. That and that alone. That is all I meant by the 'exact same assertion'. I absolutely did not mean to link that back to the first paragraph and say that all of you have logged on here and said that a particular minority has a problem with stealing etc., nor was this ever my intention.

The two paragraphs are meant to have nothing to do with each other. I failed to make that clear.

As my previous post said, and I meant it without a shred of insincerity, I regard you as the most kind-hearted member of the forum and would never dream of accusing you of racism.

More than happy to hold my hands up and apologise if I've written in a way that wasn't clear. I may be a bellend, but I'm quite a reasonable one.



And I'd still like to know how Israel is an apartheid state.

 

The Israeli Prime Minister is vile. But he may not represent the Israeli government, people or Jewish people as a whole (certainly not) in any way shape or form. The problem with politics is the tendency to resort to generalisations. Which is why I am embarrassed by being categorised as British or English when I shouldn't be.
I don't think people get the politicians they deserve.

 

Fully agree.

The worst thing to happen to Israeli politics in a generation. Indeed, he has come to (sadly) define a generation.