I didn't realise 42,000 deaths included all deaths not just civilian deaths, but this is what I mean when I say it all just becomes abstracted. Suddenly 30,000 + is better that 42,000 deaths But it's still tens of thousands of innocent lives, shot, crushed, blown up, dismembered, decapitated, burned to death For what ? Israel is never going to win an ideological war over this. They might destroy Hamas and Hezbollah in their current guises, destroy their weapons etc, but by the same measure they are going to strengthen the resolve of those who now want revenge and to do more harm to them than ever before. An endless cycle of violence until Israel wakes up and recognises that a two state solution is the only way this can be managed.
There won’t ever be a lasting peace. That’s just how it is and people should get their heads around it. You could give them 99% of Israel and it won’t be enough. Even Israel and Murica combined aren’t stopping Iran entirely so it’s just kill or be killed for longer than we’ll be around in between occasional ceasefires.
Maybe I'm too much of an idealist, but I think there can be. Folk said the same about N. Ireland, which looked like a totally intractable situation, but a lasting peace was found. I know it's a different situation, but I believe that 99% of people just want to live in peace, raise their kids and get on with their neighbours. I know it's a complex situation, and people on all sides would have to make big compromises for any sort of peace to work. And that's the problem, nobody wants to be seen to be conceding, so instead the idea that if one side can wipe the other out, we'll have some sort of security and peace, which is just a ludicrous idea, because you cannot destroy an ideology, you have to work with each other to find the common ground, as impossible as that looks right now.
I agree with everything you've just said. Fundamental and lasting change is needed. Where we disagree, it seems, is on the question of Iran. You, Pinky and other posters very clearly view Iran as just another effect of Israel's cause. In poetic terms, you all see Israel as the Cause de tuti Causes, the absolute First Trigger of and which therefore bears Final Responsibility for all conflict in the region. I and others very firmly see Iran in the opposite light. It is not an effect, it is a cause. A cause of death and suffering in regions far beyond anything to do with Israel, including most recently the ongoing genocide in Sudan. If you think for a moment there will be regional peace if Israel starts to fully comply with International Law, you are sorely mistaken and I am glad and indeed relieved that most major world leaders, no matter how critical of Israel they are, recognise that the latter's struggle with Iran vastly transcends the Palestinian question entirely, and that peace cannot be achieved until that broader and more existential question has been answered in full.
Yes, you are too much of an idealist. There are worse things to be. I too still hope for the water park which is the realistic option.
I'm sure the the 580,000 dead innocent civilians in Syria will be relieved to hear that their deaths were more spread out. Meaningless statistics from a shamefully anti-Israel charity.
Just to pull you up on a couple of issues. I don't, and I expect Fosse doesn't see Iran as simply an effect of Israeli behaviour. And whilst that struggle with Iran is complex and ongoing, it does not for one moment, negate Israel's responsibility to address their illegal occupation of Palestine and the conditions of subjugation that it has enforced upon their population.
I also find it troubling that any organisation that highlights Israel's persecution of the Palestinian population. Oxfam, the UN, Unwra is suddenly labelled as Anti-Israel. That's a cop out in my book.
Agreed. I just never see either of you mention the Iran question with any real urgency or linkage to the more localised Israel/Palestine conflict. Maybe I've missed posts to that effect. Apologies if so. Currently it seems the world sees the Iran question as a more urgent one than the Palestinian question. I tend to agree. (This does not mean I want to ignore the Palestinian question).
No mate ... I abhor Iran and it's fundamentalist doctrine... just as I do the Taliban in Afghanistan... partly, I suspect, because I have 3 daughters who I have watched blossom and grow and would not stand for any **** trying to restrict or oppress in any way ...
That's lovely. It isn't remotely the same as saying that you hold Iran directly responsible for the current mess, and that you abhor it for using Palestinian, Lebanese, Yemenite, Sudanese, Iraqi and Syrian civilians as its pawns to be led like lambs to the slaughter to advance its imperialist and genocidal agenda. The latter is where we still differ.
Oxfam are horrendous. UNWRA has suspended dozens of its employees after "discovering" they were members of Hamas. I think the fact that the author of the article had to issue two clarifications and retract a description from the original headline tells you all you need to know. They should just stick to providing Reebok classics and matching trackies to deprived seaside towns.
I the good old days when Britain ruled the world they would have solved the conflict with a bit of map drawing Remove all the Jewish settlers in the West.Bank, add a small patch of Israel to the West Bank roughly the size of Gaza, relocate all the civilians from Gaza into the new part of the West Bank, rename the two areas Israel and Palestine with full statehood, then the Israelis can level Gaza and relocate the settlers removed. from the West Bank America could help fund the cost of this to Israel and the Oil States could fund the cost to the new Palestine Far too simplistic I know, but both sides would have almost what they want but not all and both sides would find reasons to find it unacceptable, BUT the current conflict cannot just continue until the winner is literally one man left standing To make it work every Arab State would have to accept Israel as a legitimate state and work together to eliminate outlawed terrorist organisation with the help of the Western Powers and also a solution has to be found for the other conflicts in the Middle East that are causing the mass migration, and again the oil rich Arab States and America could help with the massive rebuilding of all the the areas devastated by war
Well that makes UNWRA a good organisation if they’ve suspended people for being Hamas members. Let’s just **** Oxfam off whilst we’re at it because they’ve criticised Israel
It was Britain’s map drawing after the Balfour treaty that caused this **** show in the first place. But overall I agree with your sentiment. There’s no solution without a two state solution.
We need to deal with Iran for everyones sake, I just feel failure to take the opportunity to deal with them now, will have consequences for the future - beyond my lifetime so why should I care, well I care because we have the opportunity now! Putin is too busy with Ukraine, and China will not get involved, they can just put their feet up and watch. For anyone that thinks we shouldn't go for Iran, well in my eyes the mess in Gaza and the Lebanon is because of them, not because of Israel. Israel have now cleared a path, so let's get on with it. MI5 have already given warnings in the UK today, I suggest we heed them, bring it on. please log in to view this image
