Well at least 4 people above thought the numbers represented some kind of gotcha moment, despite clearly not doing anything of the sort. Non white people commit crimes at higher rates than white people in almost every category within the UK, fact. It should be obvious that special effort is needed to integrate people to the country so they adhere to the generally safe way of living here, relative to the world. The exceptionally high immigration numbers of the past 5 years are clearly going to increase crime in this country. Why don't we invest in training some of the marginalised communities of our own country, who disproportionately vote for right wing dog whistlers. Routinely left behind and then sneered at by the largely wealthy socially liberal sorts when they turn to extreme politics. Andrew Tate, Nigel Farage, Rupert Lowe are all ****ers, yes, but they are the only ones pretending to understand the plight of the white working classes and offer some kind of solution. It's no ****ing wonder they are so popular, and gaining in popularity amongst certain communities. There is literally no one else offering them answers to their problems. We should be training people to be social workers in this country, not taking away all funding, making it a degree required field with ball crunching loans, relying on foreign workers with often inferior training and then wondering why the social care sector is dying on its arse and reliant on millions of unpaid carers. Os may chat a load of ****. But by lord so do so many others on this board who so sanctimoniously think otherwise.
Okay, I will engage with this… Well at least 4 people above thought the numbers represented some kind of gotcha moment, despite clearly not doing anything of the sort. This is your interpretation. I think the sly racism in Os’s posts, and his constant ‘oh look at this’ posts without any evidence or supporting arguments alarm people. They definitely don’t encourage debate. Non white people commit crimes at higher rates than white people in almost every category within the UK, fact. But you already agreed colour is a poor indicator and wealth is more important. Poor white people commit crime on comparable levels. It is down to the level of poverty. There are more rich white people which skews the graphic. It should be obvious that special effort is needed to integrate people to the country so they adhere to the generally safe way of living here, relative to the world. I agree. The exceptionally high immigration numbers of the past 5 years are clearly going to increase crime in this country. This is too simple. A very large chunk of this excessive immigration is students. They aren’t committing any other crime than coming here for a prestigious degree and being milked for cash by our universities. Then we have all those coming to fulfil skills shortfalls. I don’t like it either, by the way. But racialising and linking ‘immigration’ to crime marginalises millions of hardworking people. It isn’t their fault we need them. And need them we do - until we start investing in our own people. Why don't we invest in training some of the marginalised communities of our own country, who disproportionately vote for right wing dog whistlers. Which is why I totally agree with this. Routinely left behind and then sneered at by the largely wealthy socially liberal sorts when they turn to extreme politics. Do you think rightwingers have treated them any better? How did levelling up go? I actually agree about the sneering of lefties. I grew up poor and sympathise with working class communities- but that doesn’t excuse bigotry and racism. So when racists riot I call it a racist riot. Andrew Tate, Nigel Farage, Rupert Lowe are all ****ers, yes, but they are the only ones pretending to understand the plight of the white working classes and offer some kind of solution. Bang on. They are pretending. Sitting in their mansions, blowing the dog whistles, laughing at poor people. It's no ****ing wonder they are so popular, and gaining in popularity amongst certain communities. There is literally no one else offering them answers to their problems. You are too smart not to see they offer no solutions. They offer only rhetoric. If we did what they said there would be chaos. Racial war. A huge step back in what we have achieved over 30 years. And you know what, we have achieved a huge amount. Quality of life is better. People are much nicer to each other. People marry across races and we are all happy about it. That is all good, right? We should be training people to be social workers in this country, not taking away all funding, making it a degree required field with ball crunching loans, relying on foreign workers with often inferior training and then wondering why the social care sector is dying on its arse and reliant on millions of unpaid carers. You could not get more thumbs up from me. Os may chat a load of ****. But by lord so do so many others on this board who so sanctimoniously think otherwise. It is really hard not to do that when he posts things like: rapes up, wonder why that is? Sexual assaults on trains, wonder who that is? It is such thinly hidden bigotry it has to gall anyone with a reasonable moral compass.
This is your interpretation. I think the sly racism in Os’s posts, and his constant ‘oh look at this’ posts without any evidence or supporting arguments alarm people. They definitely don’t encourage debate. Hmm, it is clearly what has happened. People are awful at reading statistics and how to interpret them as the last page clearly shows.. But you already agreed colour is a poor indicator and wealth is more important. Poor white people commit crime on comparable levels. It is down to the level of poverty. There are more rich white people which skews the graphic. Absolutely wealth is the main factor. It is why it is disingenuous of the socially liberal people to suggest migration is nothing but good news. This narrative fuels the ammunition of the Andrew Tate's of this world, as they can rightly point out it isn't ALL positive. Migration obviously has both positive and negative consequences. It isn't something that is inherently absolute. But nuance is effectively gone and the absence of reasonable conversation has resulted in only those entrenched in their views arguing with each other. This is too simple. A very large chunk of this excessive immigration is students. They aren’t committing any other crime than coming here for a prestigious degree and being milked for cash by our universities. Then we have all those coming to fulfil skills shortfalls. I don’t like it either, by the way. But racialising and linking ‘immigration’ to crime marginalises millions of hardworking people. It isn’t their fault we need them. And need them we do - until we start investing in our own people. The problem is, we are investing in our own people less than at any point in modern history. Meaning migration is the only way to plug the gap in our countries requirements. This is the perfect climate to encourage a belief that migrants are given preferential treatment amongst those who are having opportunities taken away from them. Do you think rightwingers have treated them any better? How did levelling up go? I actually agree about the sneering of lefties. I grew up poor and sympathise with working class communities- but that doesn’t excuse bigotry and racism. So when racists riot I call it a racist riot. They haven't treated them any better, they lied to them, as we both agree on. But that is not what I am saying at all. It is almost inarguable that right wing populists are the only ones offering the white working classes a solution to their problems. Sneering at them for turning to the populists is the inherent problem. Populists are literally being allowed to control the narrative, whilst anyone who dares to suggest that we do have a major issue with immigration/ funding and how they are clearly intrinsically linked issues is written off out of hand. It's complete ****ing madness. Bang on. They are pretending. Sitting in their mansions, blowing the dog whistles, laughing at poor people. What scares me is how easily they are able to get away with. Divide and conquer at its finest. You are too smart not to see they offer no solutions. They offer only rhetoric. If we did what they said there would be chaos. Racial war. A huge step back in what we have achieved over 30 years. And you know what, we have achieved a huge amount. Quality of life is better. People are much nicer to each other. People marry across races and we are all happy about it. That is all good, right? I literally said exactly that already yes! They are pretending to care. But they are the only ones at least pretending. That is why it is obvious they are gaining in popularity. It is really hard not to do that when he posts things like: rapes up, wonder why that is? Sexual assaults ontrains, wonder who that is? It is such thinly hidden bigotry it has to gall anyone with a reasonable moral compass. Oh I get it, but most people can see through the scarcely concealed bigotry. The debate needs to refocus. Because pretending that crime isn't committed more by non-white people, when it can clearly be proven otherwise, is not the way to go about it. People need to recognise there is a reason thst many are turning to populists and stop blaming them for doing so.
I agree with most of this. But two points. You said at the start that people cannot read stats. Well, higher levels of crime in minority groups is still a minority of crime. There is nothing wrong with reminding people of that. It would be wrong to say most crime is committed by foreigners, just as it is wrong to say immigration is rising and sexual assault on trains is rising, therefore the two must be linked. The second point relates to this: They haven't treated them any better, they lied to them, as we both agree on. But that is not what I am saying at all. It is almost inarguable that right wing populists are the only ones offering the white working classes a solution to their problems. This is because they are the only ones who can. There are solutions but we have been indoctrinated to believe they are bad. We can increase public spending, by either raising taxes or borrowing. That is the only way to inject the investment we need. However, these populists pretend it can be done while LOWERING tax. This creates a horrible position for normal politicians. If they tell the truth they lose their seats. If they join in with the rhetoric nothing changes. Sneering at them for turning to the populists is the inherent problem. Populists are literally being allowed to control the narrative, whilst anyone who dares to suggest that we do have a major issue with immigration/ funding and how they are clearly intrinsically linked issues is written off out of hand. It's complete ****ing madness. I think most of us want a rational conversation about this, but when people use over the top, sensationalised dog whistles to blame ‘the other’ and won’t listen to debate it all goes to ****. The week Os was banned from this board we had some very balanced debates about immigration. They ended when someone started making one side look really ugly.
You said at the start that people cannot read stats. Well, higher levels of crime in minority groups is still a minority of crime. There is nothing wrong with reminding people of that. It would be wrong to say most crime is committed by foreigners, just as it is wrong to say immigration is rising and sexual assault on trains is rising, therefore the two must be linked. Yeah fair enough. Correlation doesn't equal causation for sure. And whoever said that confidence in reporting crime earlier on is probably correct. But both things are true here, non white people are more like to commit crime, white people commit the most crimes. My objection was largely people seeing the raw numbers and drawing incorrect conclusions. Stand by it, people are largely horrific at analysing data. This is because they are the only ones who can. There are solutions but we have been indoctrinated to believe they are bad. We can increase public spending, by either raising taxes or borrowing. That is the only way to inject the investment we need. However, these poluosts pretend it can be done while LOWERING tax. This creates a horrible position for normal politicians. If they tell the truth they lose their seats. If they join in with the rhetoric nothing changes. Hmm I am not so sure I believe this. I've been a member of the labour party for 14 years, since joining whilst in my first year of college. And I am incredibly disappointed that they have been too safe despite the massive majority they have. They have shield away from giving the bad news the OBR were shouting about months before the election. They won't have this much political capital in the bank for a generation and not being the Tories isn't a viable long term strategy. I really thought they would be brave. Do something bold like rejoining the customs union, or announcing a borrowing package focusing on shaking up education and training for young British people. But literally nothing. If the 'red wall' doesn't receive funding the narrow the opportunity gap between the north and south soon, they will all go to Farages reform party. And he will rightfully overjoyed at how meek Labour have been so far.
And I agree with all this. I think Labour have been way too afraid to do what needs to be done - and I was moaning that Labour are not a socialist party anymore long before the election. See, we can all come to agreement!
The reason I posted those stats was to refute Os’s assertion that the increase in rape was down to undocumented migrants. The stats, however you interpret them, clearly show that the vast majority of rapes are by white males. Fact.
I'm a bit reluctant to get involved in this but surely the question should be about crimes committed by immigrants (as it was the problems of immigration originally mentioned) and not the colour of their skin?
It is really hard to find data. There is a long Wikipedia entry about UK crime and immigration- but it finds no correlation between increased crime and immigration in general and only brief rises during surges of immigration. Now if you want to look at US immigration, that is much worse with some significant links to crime. But we don’t live there so hopefully nobody is making that mistake. Quick edit to say, the Wiki entry is clear that areas if settled immigrant populations actually see reduced crime.
“Hopefully nobody is making that mistake”. You are aware that it is pretty standard practice, especially among those on the right, to just parrot US political talking points and apply them to this country without thinking at all. The person who started this particular back and forth is notorious for it But it’s also how you get right wingers dribbling on about how we “gave up our guns” so we can’t stand up to the government (as if they do) or Musk raving about civil wars in European countries. Ones that would be squashed even faster than the US one that the like of Tim Pool dream about
Found this re undocumented immigrants it makes a point regarding the difficulty and expense of regularisation compared to other countries. The net economic value of settled immigrants is well proven and documented. https://jcwi.org.uk/resource/who-are-the-uks-undocumented-population/
I didn't really make myself clear in that I meant if there is a problem with crimes regarding immigration it should be across all immigrants and not black/brown v white. I'm not against these type of discussions as long as valid points are raised in a measured way and the response is also valid and measured. It should be possible to discuss delicate subjects but quite often they quickly deteriorate.
I think we are all doing our best to negotiate the difficult tightrope of debate here. You are right that there is a difference between race and immigration. I have pointed out before that Albanians are the most criminally prosecuted immigrant group, for example!
I hope labour don't return to an only socialist agenda. Corbyn was a disaster and his weakness in opposition has contributed to the mess the country is currently in. The UK is a centrist country. That is where the majority of elections are won and will be won in future.
But the core of what you were asking for yesterday and what I voted for them for was spending on services and investing in people - from the bottom up. Those are socialist aims.
What is the well documented net economic value of migrants? https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac....s/the-fiscal-impact-of-immigration-in-the-uk/ I imagine it is out of date and not reflective of the recent enormous surges in recent years. It also won't reflect the strain on services in a country that is routinely cutting infrastructural services. This article suggests immigration from the EEA is barely positive and immigration from outside the EEA is barely negative. Not even factoring in the strain, just purely economic. It also assumes net migration in the future will not exceed 250,000 per year, which it has been orders of magnitude higher than. Roads are packed, hospital waiting lists are full and not getting smaller. Social care is ****ed. Education and training isn't sufficient for our countries needs. Parroting nonsense saying it is a net benefit IS the reason people are turning to Farage.
I had a brief conversation with someone I'd known since my teens who, pre election, told me if Labour won the UK would be under Muslim control in ten years time. This a successful businessman more or less retired who also advocated the elimination of Palestine and the Palestinians. Totally irrational, we'd had one or two similar chats this the last. Shame.
Disagree. They are as much centrist ideals. It is about balancing the needs of business and the highest earners who contribute the majority of the countries taxation and distributing it to provide opportunity to those who have it restricted.
