Maybe the discussion regarding the difference between Bridgestone and Pirelli requires an article of itself. When refuelling was allowed then the average race of 60 laps meant two stopping and you might as well change your tyres at the same time. Why would a tyre manufacturer build a tyre that could carry a fully fueled car? The car would always go faster on fresh rubber. Now we have no refueling and the races still average 60 laps with 2 pit stops. Hamilton pits at the same time as the other drivers. Despite the change of rules I do not see any evidence that any driver has suffered performance issues regarding the Pirelli tyre. Currently, the drivers seem to be stopping on the same laps and usually maintain position. Hamilton has had a bad 2011 tis true but I do not see the proof that the problems arose from tyre issues.
'Neutral' is a relative term. Let's put it another way: Button does not like oversteer on turn in relative to most others, (although quite happy with it on power out; and this does not include Alonso who likes a lot of understeer compared to most other drivers). Button likes an 'ideal' which is relatively neutral, but because this is so difficult to achieve for every corner on a circuit that he dials in a little understeer as 'insurance' against a tendency for oversteer. Even so, alterations with brake bias and differential settings may be selected for individual characteristics of individual corners. However, unlike most other drivers, he is seeking an idealised 'neutral' relative to other drivers, and public statements to the press are made in relatively simple language and often not fully understood by the reporting journalist who is rarely a professional driver. It is a subtle thing Xiggly, and that link you referred to is very very simplified. As for four wheel drift; firstly, it is not my theory. Furthermore, BrightLampShade seems to understand it. 'Four wheel drift' has been understood for well in excess of 60 years, but the reason that a driver may prefer it (almost always only at lower levels than modern day F1 for the reasons I've explained), is that it is possible to get through a corner more quickly. The cost of this extra speed (if a driver can do it) is that it eats tyres! - And that is the very subject of this thread!! In the old days of F1, before aerodynamic grip was properly understood, and when tyres were thin and made of wood, every Grand Prix driver used four wheel drift; but at today's levels of grip (both aero and mechanical) it is virtually impossible for any human to do without spinning or running off the circuit!
Just to clarify how drifting can improve cornering speed; optimum performance is achieved at somewhere between about 10 and 15% wheel-slip (whether longitudinal, lateral or a combination of both) and is dependant upon compound and construction. It is also influenced by tyre pressure as well as ambient and track temperatures. Some others prefer to say between 8 and 12% wheel-slip. Whatever. It should be clear that it is not an exact science, and that a driver may even consider it to be an art-form! Exploring slip-angles (the percentages above also apply to lateral grip) allows a driver to brake later into and power out earlier from a corner by having the car pointing in the right direction for longer in both cases, but it comes at the expense of tyre wear; and in an F1 car is very difficult to achieve consistently, especially if slip-angles are being explored at both ends of the car at once! (A four wheel drift can be though of as a combination of understeer and oversteer at the same time, altering the 'angle of attack' of the car (the direction it is actually pointing in) whilst at the same time taking a straighter trajectory than is required without wheel-slip. Taking nothing away from the drivers of yester-year, this was far easier to achieve in the 'old days' before huge slicks and massive downforce⦠©
I can respect people saying Lewis has pitted pretty much at the same time as I can see it as well. But it could be because he really does have to change tyres while the rest just have to because their pit crew say so or having to respond to another rival behind or infront. Somebody could be a real star here and see what time Lewis pitted, where he was at the time in respect to the nearest rival at the time, and what Jenson did if on the same strategy. And we can try to make out did he really have to pit or not... We also have to take in the undercut robbing people of places, so lots of "drivers" will just react to safeguard the place rather than carrying on and risk being robbed of a win or podium etc...
sorry i dont understand any of your " neutral / understeer / theory , i just know button has allways thrived on an understeering chassis -- he has said so himself , i cant really grasp how understeer can mean nuetral -- to me understeer means just that - as for four wheel drift -- cant really say i have seen any driver drifting round a corner , if it damages the tyres there is no point in anybody doing it ,
its not that hamiton has any major tyre issues , as mark hughes explains it would seem he is not getting the best out of them in race trim - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/15926791.stm
In times past the purpose of the four wheel drift was to have the car pointing along the sraight a fraction earlier than you would if you didn't use it. Cars back then did not have downforce keeping them stuck to the track in corners so lap times were better when using it. It probably is not the case with modern cars, so it usually only occurs to correct an error
Please do not repeat the same post and link. If you have succeeded in making a point once then it is unnecessary to post it more than once. Repetitive posting just displays a lack of confidence in your original view. Please try to concentrate on taking a thread forward rather than trying to spoil it by taking it backward by repeating the same post. Thank you.
I guess with the tyres supposedly changing again this winter the whole who prefers the tyres thing could change again. The loss of blown diffusers will also change the way the car is driven so next year who knows
Let's forget Button. I am not going to enter into a repetitive bore-fest again. Yes; four wheel drift is difficult to spot with modern F1 cars, especially if you don't know what you're looking for and also watching from TV. At track-side it is far easier to spot differences in driving styles. As far as there being any point in doing it: I have already explained once. This is the last time: It reduces lap time by allowing later braking and earlier power out of a corner, at the expense of those big black round things - which tend to wear out more quickly when 'abused' with high slip-angles. Adopting this technique is a personal preference and is obviously a trade-off of reduced lap time v shorter life at optimal performance. It is also relatively high-risk (most drivers do not want to do it at all in F1 because it is so difficult to do with the modern day levels of mechanical and aerodynamic grip of F1 cars. However, if you know what you're looking for, you can occasionally see Hamilton doing it; especially in Qualifying or when overtaking when his move begins immediately before a corner (in the braking zone).
Next year Pirelli are making the tyres less durable as the teams and drivers seem to have worked out how to make them last a lot longer by the end. So it should be back to more of a turkey 2011 style. They are also making them more "square" please log in to view this image I kid you not. They have said so many times. I don't know what they mean by that please log in to view this image ? But apparently the rears go off faster than the fronts this year and the increased squareness will make the rears go off at the same time as the fronts. The less durableness looks to hurt hamilton but the increased rear durability probably saves him a bit seeing as he is oversteery.
Hahahaha funny as ever Sea-Man! By 'square', they mean when looking at the tyre end-on (i.e. from the front or the back, but not sideways as in your hilarious diagram! ). It means that the transition from sidewall to contact patch will be less curved - more pronounced - than 2011. Imagine a tyre with completely flat sidewalls all the way up to the circumference where it meets the contact surface. Pirelli's tyre will not be quite that pronounced, but it will be closer to it than this year's. You are also right about their intention to make the fronts go off quicker relative to the rears, so that there will be a better balance, allowing more flexibility in driving styles.
ahh I see thanks Cosicave that makes more sense than Pirelli saying "next year I think we will have square wheels" At least they wouldn't be able to flat spot them......
Lewis is harder than others on his tyres than guys such as Button and Vettel. He is not as bad as Webber and is probably about the same as Alonso, we always see Vettel & Button going longer than others.
Seb is also at home with it - did you see his lap at Monza it quali where he went through Variante Ascari in a four wheel drift!
Hungary was the perfect example of Lewis not being able to handle his tyres as well as JB and Seb, and kind of dismisses the claims that Lewis can do it when leading and Vettel can't do it when not leading. Button and Vettel were taking huge chunks of time out of him at the end of each stint, and it was ultimately trying to match their pace with worse tyres, as the rain started to fall, that induced a mistake from him and ruined his race. Tyre management from the drivers' point of view is all about how they react to instabilities. If you start to get power oversteer for example and just keep your foot in it you'll overheat your rears and ultimately have to pit earlier. Looking after the fronts is important as well, while they're unlikely to fall off the cliff with the current Pirellis, if they're abused it will reduce performance on turn in and result in lost lap time. Looking after the fronts is where I think SV and JB are very good, apparently when they feel understeer they lift off and open the steering to let the car come back to them, others (I suspect most others) would just crank on more steering angle and exacerbate the problem. While they wouldn't have to pit earlier because of this, there would be more drop off during a stint. I think too many drivers neglect to look after the fronts because it's the rears which are more critical at the moment. This might change next year with Pirellis boxier rear tyres.
There's two ways the new tyres could go (obviously ) the fronts going off earlier and the backs later could benefit those who can throw a car into a corner with less care of the rears needed. Or the greater loss of front grip could really hurt those who like to throw it into a corner, but now have less grip to do that. I believe most of the grid likes to dial a little understeer into their cars, but now at the end of the stints this might become excessive understeer. We may see cars starting off with a little oversteer built in to compensate over an average stint. Now, I have yet to be corrected but I'm sure Alonso loves understeer. I can remember the Renault looking full of horrible understeer as he set his fastest laps back in 05/06. This makes me think that Alonso will either be very good at the end of the stints as he's used to it, or he may actually punish his fronts too much and unusually be caught out by it. We always hear that Button likes his car just so, and now with the fronts going off at a more similar pace to the rears this may keep the car more balanced and we may see a brilliant season from him. Then again (again) the ability he has to look after rears may become less important. I could go on about other drivers but I think you get the point. The word theory comes up a lot and until next March, nobody really knows.
