Off Topic International Break Thread

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A few more thoughts about teams versus getting the "best players" into the team. Not the same thing. It's about playing players out of position - or at least not in the position they best play for their clubs, just so they can be in the 11. Let's start with one, having Trippier at left back. I do get we don't have another fit left back, but he's playing there at the expense of an actual left back who isn't in the squad. So how good does a player have to be "in general" (whatever that means) to displace a player playing in their natural position? Here's another. The idea of playing TAA in central midfield because "we need his passing" or something. But he's not a central midfielder so does he bring more than we lose by playing an actual central midfielder?

But wait, here's the most controversial. It's traditional for England it seems to consider the left wing as a slot to be used for fitting in the player you can't get in any other way. Not sure it's worked too well in the past. So now we have Foden there. Great player but doesn't he play best.... where Bellingham plays? So if he plays on the left he has to bring more to the team than an actual player who regularly plays there. Moreover, he's got to avoid the tendency to drift into an area where he knows he's better - thus possibly reducing the effectiveness of Bellingham. So the controversial point is can Foden and Bellingham play in the same team (or more exactly, can they play in the same team more efficiently than playing players in their best positions)? So far their England careers have been OK but by no means stellar (mind you, this competition would be a good place to correct that!) I heard a stat on the radio recently that they've got something like 60 caps and 7 goals between them. Sure their job isn't just scoring goals but even still it should surely be better? Now I don't know how many times they've actually played together, but if they are in the team it has to be seamless. If TAA is in midfield and Foden is on the left it's no good saying that it worked against Slovenia and Serbia - that hasn't been our problem in the recent tournaments - it's whether it will work against the best teams.

I really hope I'm wrong!
 
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vimhawk said:
A few more thoughts about teams versus getting the "best players" into the team. Not the same thing. It's about playing players out of position - or at least not in the position they best play for their clubs, just so they can be in the 11. Let's start with one, having Trippier at left back. I do get we don't have another fit left back, but he's playing there at the expense of an actual left back who isn't in the squad. So how good does a player have to be "in general" (whatever that means) to displace a player playing in their natural position? Here's another. The idea of playing TAA in central midfield because "we need his passing" or something. But he's not a central midfielder so does he bring more than we lose by playing an actual central midfielder?

But wait, here's the most controversial. It's traditional for England it seems to consider the left wing as a slot to be used for fitting in the player you can't get in any other way. Not sure it's worked too well in the past. So now we have Foden there. Great player but doesn't he play best.... where Bellingham plays? So if he plays on the left he has to bring more to the team than an actual player who regularly plays there. Moreover, he's got to avoid the tendency to drift into an area where he knows he's better - thus possibly reducing the effectiveness of Bellingham. So the controversial point is can Foden and Bellingham play in the same team? So far their England careers have been OK but by no means stellar (mind you, this competition would be a good place to correct that!) I heard a stat on the radio recently that they've got something like 60 caps and 7 goals between them. Sure their job isn't just scoring goals but even still it should surely be better? Now I don't know how many times they've actually played together, but if they are in the team it has to be seamless. If TAA is in midfield and Foden is on the left it's no good saying that it worked against Slovenia and Serbia - that hasn't been our problem in the recent tournaments - it's whether it will work against the best teams.

I really hope I'm wrong!
Click to expand...

I’ve wanted to see Trent in midfield for a while to be honest. It’s no secret he can’t defend well enough as a defender so utilise his vision and passing in midfield alongside Rice, who’s a very good DM. It may or may not work but I’m happy to see it given a go. That said, I’d love to see Wharton given a start but I doubt that’ll happen.

As for the attack, I’d just personally blame any issues on Southgate and his mind numbing ability to make some of the most talented attackers in Europe look distinctly average.

Watching the Germans the other night under Nagelsmann - a progressive and attack minded coach - and seeing Musiala, Wirtz and Gundogan behind Havertz given that freedom to dictate the game was a real joy to see, Musiala especially was superb. If we switched managers, I think a trio of Foden, Bellingham and Saka (plus the likes of Eze and Palmer off the bench) would similarly shine for country behind Kane.
 
vimhawk said:
A few more thoughts about teams versus getting the "best players" into the team. Not the same thing. It's about playing players out of position - or at least not in the position they best play for their clubs, just so they can be in the 11. Let's start with one, having Trippier at left back. I do get we don't have another fit left back, but he's playing there at the expense of an actual left back who isn't in the squad. So how good does a player have to be "in general" (whatever that means) to displace a player playing in their natural position? Here's another. The idea of playing TAA in central midfield because "we need his passing" or something. But he's not a central midfielder so does he bring more than we lose by playing an actual central midfielder?

But wait, here's the most controversial. It's traditional for England it seems to consider the left wing as a slot to be used for fitting in the player you can't get in any other way. Not sure it's worked too well in the past. So now we have Foden there. Great player but doesn't he play best.... where Bellingham plays? So if he plays on the left he has to bring more to the team than an actual player who regularly plays there. Moreover, he's got to avoid the tendency to drift into an area where he knows he's better - thus possibly reducing the effectiveness of Bellingham. So the controversial point is can Foden and Bellingham play in the same team (or more exactly, can they play in the same team more efficiently than playing players in their best positions)? So far their England careers have been OK but by no means stellar (mind you, this competition would be a good place to correct that!) I heard a stat on the radio recently that they've got something like 60 caps and 7 goals between them. Sure their job isn't just scoring goals but even still it should surely be better? Now I don't know how many times they've actually played together, but if they are in the team it has to be seamless. If TAA is in midfield and Foden is on the left it's no good saying that it worked against Slovenia and Serbia - that hasn't been our problem in the recent tournaments - it's whether it will work against the best teams.

I really hope I'm wrong!
Click to expand...

There isn't an obvious solution to the LB problem and it appears all hopes are riding on Trippier forgetting that A) He is right footed and B) He's just had a stinker of a season at club level, after which the hope is that Luke Shaw returns as if nothing happened having not kicked a ball since February.

As much as we have history struggling to fill spots on the left flank (Scholes and Sinclair at LW, anyone?), we probably have a worse record in rushing players back from injury. Beckham and Rooney being the two most obvious examples.
 
So so first half from England really. Deserve to be ahead but the lack of a controlling influence in midfield is stark. The last 15 mins of that first half we just let the momentum get away from us. Rice, Bellingham and Trent all have their own qualities but none of them are really going to regulate the tempo of a game.

Also feels like Kane isn’t coming deep as often as he usually does, which often gives us another way to just hold onto the ball.
 
Midfield is looking more and more off it. I don’t think Trent belongs in there tbh. Wouldn’t mind getting Gordon on for Foden and Gallagher or Wharton for Trent and just stretch the game with a little bit of something different in the middle of the park too.
 
Gallagher replaces Alexander-Arnold. Very different player.
Should inject some energy, at least.
 
Bowen on for Saka. Disappeared from the game. Might be an idea to rest him in the next one.
 
PleaseNotPoll said:
1-0 FT. Excellent result, but a very mixed performance.
How many changes will Southgate make for Denmark?
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Not impressed. We look miles off the level
of Spain or Germany. I don’t think we would have beaten Switzerland, Poland, Italy or Holland based on what we’ve seen so far.
But we would have beaten Scotland <laugh>
 
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The way Nagelsmann used his midfielders and attackers the other night and then watching how Southgate utilises his is just so depressing.

Sucks all the enjoyment and quality out of the team and makes it about 20% harder in general to win games. Playing like this screams a quarter final knockout… if we’re lucky!
 
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The result puts a huge ****ing sticking plaster over what was a pretty awful performance. A draw would probably have been the fair result.
Bellingham is class, but a combination of some poor personal games and limited set-up made for an unedifying spectacle.
Foden for England, whether because of where he plays or just an indication of his true level, is a disappointment and Alexander-Armstrong is a bloody good WB but not a top MF.
 
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PleaseNotPoll said:
Tyrick Mitchell?
Southgate really isn't helping things by not picking a proper left winger, either.
Foden is far from his Premier League self in that position.
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It's as others have pointed out: He is still a bit too stuck on picking his best players rather than his best team. Far better than previous managers in this regard, but the balance of the team looks wrong with so many players not really playing in their strongest positions from the get-go (Trippier, Trent and Foden).

The obvious choices at LW are Gordon and Eze, who have both had fantastic seasons but have a handful of international appearances between them.

This is often the problem with the qualifiers finishing so soon before the actual tournament. November to June is an age in football, encompassing most of the domestic season. As a result, Southgate hasn't really seen anyone beyond Grealish and Rashford in that LW role, but neither of them made the squad.
 
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