Off Topic Who do you think the best player of all time is?

  • Please bear with us on the new site integration and fixing any known bugs over the coming days. If you can not log in please try resetting your password and check your spam box. If you have tried these steps and are still struggling email [email protected] with your username/registered email address
  • Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!
I always found that a little disrespectful tbh ...

... he was very talented and determined, both much more important in my opinion.
I always considered it to be a natural physical advantage that he had over other players which allowed him to make the most of his talent. In the same way that some players' strength, height, leap, low centre of gravity are cited as contributing to their ability. Just a bit more unusual.
 
Ok, here goes, my thoughts on why players of previous generations were technically better than the modern day counterparts. In broad terms at least.

I think there are some things that modern day players have in their favour, that tend to make technique either easier to come by, or appear exceptional. The football now is so light and easy to shape it in the air. Free kicks are to the modern day players benefit. But go back and look at players like Eder and Zico and how much they could make the older balls move. Go back even further they wouldnt move side to side, but you could see top players make them dip viciously. Boots are other things that favour modern day players. Quality of pitches another. Then of course the rules now favour players of a certain type and tackling with any physicality is close to being outlawed. All of these things to me mean the modern day player have more scope to show skills and technique. I think it perhaps, also makes the modern day play quick to stop practicing and evolving their ability.

The above said though if you go back and look at the high skill players in previous eras, I think the top end players were doing everything and more the modern players do. You can see players who can dribble with unreal quality, hit a pass inch perfectly, have a touch to die for and do outrageous things on the ball.

I think you need to look at the upbringing of players to see why one generation differs from another. The modern day player grows up in an academy environment, often from 6 years old upwards. When they hit 9 it is all they know. My opinion is we overcoach players in the modern game. There is no learning through play anymore. It stifles the imagination of young footballers. I see this all the time in youth football. We are coaching shape and transition at age 9 and 10. It is counter intuitive. I have mentored young coaches and the one thing that really gets me agitated when I see them stopping everyone from gathering round the ball. Why do we want 6 and 7 year olds to not want to get the ball? The bees round a honeypot is what you should encourage at early ages. Then as coaches we have forgotten how to simplify practice which maximises return. The best example I can give is solo practice with a wall and a ball. The wall pass, to teach you touch, is unbeatable. You can do that for 20 minutes and probably have over 500 first touches! You can do everything from safe side to half turn. I run a little soccer school for 5 and 6 year olds and I ask mums and dads to do this and they look at me as if I am daft. Instead kids want to practice youtube skills, none of which are game relevant. The amount of times kids want to do a rainbow flick drives me barmy. I teach them the Waddle feint instead <laugh>

Compare that with previous generations. I would literally kick the ball against a wall for hours. It wasnt intentional, but it was fun, and boy did my touch improve. Everybody did it. But then we didnt have youtubers trying to kick balls into bins, or do these crazy skills to distract us. In years gone by we taught ourselves, in our own environments. We learned by making mistakes, not by having folk tell you what to do at every turn. It just meant we learned our own bodies, our own attributes physically, and our techniques were naturally evolved, not unnaturally created.

I am a huge futsal fan. If I were in charge of the FA I would make futsal the game for kids up to 9, not football. The concept is so simple, you touch the ball 10 times more. The ball is weighted to give your touch a helping hand. It creates confidence for young players. Brazil, Portugal etc have a deep history with futsal, mainly in Brazils case due to their being no open space in the favellas. They did everything in tiny spaces. Running wasnt rewarded, pace wasnt relevant, being 6 foot tall was pointless. Out of those environments came some of the greatest technicians of all times. Touch, pass, move. Liverpool took this on in England, small games 3v3, 5v5 etc. Pass and move. These players didnt practice much other than touch, pass, vision. Somebody mentioned Molby earlier. The boy had a wonderful touch, that is why he didnt leave the centre circle, he didnt need to because of his touch and quick mind. All honed in an environment where technique was this natural thing, unspoken of, but so vital to the game. I used to watch Ronnie Whelan a lot, just this natural ball player, not coached into something else.

I have stopped my coaching in academies now, and in serious football generally. I am a bit of a dinosaur and the new lads are coming through. They are very good coaches, and we produce very good footballers, dont get me wrong. I could watch the likes of Foden all day long. Rigg and Neil are technically superb too. It isnt all bad at all, loads to be excited about. But do we have the players that are so naturally instinctive because their technique is so natural. In some cases yes, of course, but not in so many cases is my opinion.

I maybe blinded a bit by my heroes in football. And as a coach largely my approaches are seen as a bit old school. I could therefore be wide of the mark. I still love watching footballers who can look after the ball, and the modern game has plenty and the coaches are doing well. Maybe I just love the romance of a kid kicking a ball against a wall, in the tipping down rain, in some pit village somewhere, or a favella, or the dusty streets of Beunos Aires, emerging as these beautiful artists with a football.
I'm with you on the different environments producing players of different types. I've heard or read a lot of different theories on this theme. The funny bounce off English cobblestones helped refine Stanley Matthew's close control. The Dutch think about space differently because they've only got limited amounts of it. As well producing players with great dribbling ability in close spaces, the favelas produce their natural antithesis- defensive midfielders like Dunga or Gilberto Silva. There is something romantic in that.

Although people probably don't like to admit it, there is a lot of romance and mythologising around football. That's part of its charm, that it lends itself to that. @Robertson mentioned Eduardo Galeano. I like Galeano, but his descriptions of players (and events) tend to be very florid, adding to that mythology around them. He's coming at it from a literary point of view, rather than just giving a stark account. My interest in history leads me to read a lot about the history of football. Even in historical accounts of things, great players are built up and put on a sort of pedestal. This leads me down the path of believing that some of these players from long before I was born must have been so good it was beyond comprehension. When I watch what little footage there is available of them, I feel a bit disappointed because they are clearly good players but not the supernatural beings that these accounts have made them out to be.

Having said that, I do like this video of Matthias Sindelar, one of those players that, in my mind, exists on some other plane (possibly due to the circumstances surrounding his death).

You must log in or register to see media

I see what you're saying about modern attitudes. Thinking of the kids I know, they've all got goals and various targets in the garden. I had to go out in the road with a ball. They are very influenced by what they see on YouTube. And although there are plenty of very good current players, there aren't any that I love watching as much as I did players of 15-20 years ago. Having said all that, I did see something the other day that said Phil Foden perfected his touch by kicking a small ball against a wall. Next time I'm round my mates house kicking a ball in the garden with his son, I'll maybe tell him that.
 
I'm with you on the different environments producing players of different types. I've heard or read a lot of different theories on this theme. The funny bounce off English cobblestones helped refine Stanley Matthew's close control. The Dutch think about space differently because they've only got limited amounts of it. As well producing players with great dribbling ability in close spaces, the favelas produce their natural antithesis- defensive midfielders like Dunga or Gilberto Silva. There is something romantic in that.

Although people probably don't like to admit it, there is a lot of romance and mythologising around football. That's part of its charm, that it lends itself to that. @Robertson mentioned Eduardo Galeano. I like Galeano, but his descriptions of players (and events) tend to be very florid, adding to that mythology around them. He's coming at it from a literary point of view, rather than just giving a stark account. My interest in history leads me to read a lot about the history of football. Even in historical accounts of things, great players are built up and put on a sort of pedestal. This leads me down the path of believing that some of these players from long before I was born must have been so good it was beyond comprehension. When I watch what little footage there is available of them, I feel a bit disappointed because they are clearly good players but not the supernatural beings that these accounts have made them out to be.

Having said that, I do like this video of Matthias Sindelar, one of those players that, in my mind, exists on some other plane (possibly due to the circumstances surrounding his death).

You must log in or register to see media

I see what you're saying about modern attitudes. Thinking of the kids I know, they've all got goals and various targets in the garden. I had to go out in the road with a ball. They are very influenced by what they see on YouTube. And although there are plenty of very good current players, there aren't any that I love watching as much as I did players of 15-20 years ago. Having said all that, I did see something the other day that said Phil Foden perfected his touch by kicking a small ball against a wall. Next time I'm round my mates house kicking a ball in the garden with his son, I'll maybe tell him that.

Loved that video Norton, thanks for posting.
I remember watching Charlie Cooke, who arguably had the best close control of a football in his era. He reckoned he trained with a tennis ball to develop and maintain his skills.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Norton Cat
I'm with you on the different environments producing players of different types. I've heard or read a lot of different theories on this theme. The funny bounce off English cobblestones helped refine Stanley Matthew's close control. The Dutch think about space differently because they've only got limited amounts of it. As well producing players with great dribbling ability in close spaces, the favelas produce their natural antithesis- defensive midfielders like Dunga or Gilberto Silva. There is something romantic in that.

Although people probably don't like to admit it, there is a lot of romance and mythologising around football. That's part of its charm, that it lends itself to that. @Robertson mentioned Eduardo Galeano. I like Galeano, but his descriptions of players (and events) tend to be very florid, adding to that mythology around them. He's coming at it from a literary point of view, rather than just giving a stark account. My interest in history leads me to read a lot about the history of football. Even in historical accounts of things, great players are built up and put on a sort of pedestal. This leads me down the path of believing that some of these players from long before I was born must have been so good it was beyond comprehension. When I watch what little footage there is available of them, I feel a bit disappointed because they are clearly good players but not the supernatural beings that these accounts have made them out to be.

Having said that, I do like this video of Matthias Sindelar, one of those players that, in my mind, exists on some other plane (possibly due to the circumstances surrounding his death).

You must log in or register to see media

I see what you're saying about modern attitudes. Thinking of the kids I know, they've all got goals and various targets in the garden. I had to go out in the road with a ball. They are very influenced by what they see on YouTube. And although there are plenty of very good current players, there aren't any that I love watching as much as I did players of 15-20 years ago. Having said all that, I did see something the other day that said Phil Foden perfected his touch by kicking a small ball against a wall. Next time I'm round my mates house kicking a ball in the garden with his son, I'll maybe tell him that.
Brilliant mate. The wall should be advocated much more. I said to a head of academy a few years ago you should build some walls off the pitches and just use them 10 mins each day as part of player warm ups.
 
Bobby Kerr was
I'm with you on the different environments producing players of different types. I've heard or read a lot of different theories on this theme. The funny bounce off English cobblestones helped refine Stanley Matthew's close control. The Dutch think about space differently because they've only got limited amounts of it. As well producing players with great dribbling ability in close spaces, the favelas produce their natural antithesis- defensive midfielders like Dunga or Gilberto Silva. There is something romantic in that.

Although people probably don't like to admit it, there is a lot of romance and mythologising around football. That's part of its charm, that it lends itself to that. @Robertson mentioned Eduardo Galeano. I like Galeano, but his descriptions of players (and events) tend to be very florid, adding to that mythology around them. He's coming at it from a literary point of view, rather than just giving a stark account. My interest in history leads me to read a lot about the history of football. Even in historical accounts of things, great players are built up and put on a sort of pedestal. This leads me down the path of believing that some of these players from long before I was born must have been so good it was beyond comprehension. When I watch what little footage there is available of them, I feel a bit disappointed because they are clearly good players but not the supernatural beings that these accounts have made them out to be.

Having said that, I do like this video of Matthias Sindelar, one of those players that, in my mind, exists on some other plane (possibly due to the circumstances surrounding his death).

You must log in or register to see media

I see what you're saying about modern attitudes. Thinking of the kids I know, they've all got goals and various targets in the garden. I had to go out in the road with a ball. They are very influenced by what they see on YouTube. And although there are plenty of very good current players, there aren't any that I love watching as much as I did players of 15-20 years ago. Having said all that, I did see something the other day that said Phil Foden perfected his touch by kicking a small ball against a wall. Next time I'm round my mates house kicking a ball in the garden with his son, I'll maybe tell him that.

Bobby Kerr was a case in point, he was compared to Garrincha in his pre Hunter days.
 
Prior to the leg breaks? I hadn't realised it was Norman who broke his leg.
Yep right in front of the main stand at Roker….Hunter saw him coming and left his foot in knowing Kerr’s youthful exuberance would try for a ball he shouldn’t have and the rest is histroy as they say
Mind Bobby had the last laugh in 73.
Bobby rented a house opposite us in Stockton years after he retired and when this subject was raised he just shrugged his shoulders and said that’s football, he didn’t hold any malice against Hunter.
 
Prior to the leg breaks? I hadn't realised it was Norman who broke his leg.

It was, although Bobby had broken his leg earlier in his career at reserve or youth team level, the second break (Norman) reputably caused him to lose some of his ability including his banana shots , and jinking running style, a speciality in his early games which had people comparing him to Garrincha.
 
For me its Ronaldinho. He just edges it infront of Zidane for me.
Unfortunately he didn't take football seriously enough though and loved to.party, but for 3 years at Barca i dont think any player can ever replicate his ability, he was an absolute machine.

Obviously Ronaldo and Messi need to be in the mix aswell but it gets boring talking about them 2
George Best. Pele said he was the best ever and he was a good judge of a player.
 
  • Like
Reactions: farnboromackem
It was, although Bobby had broken his leg earlier in his career at reserve or youth team level, the second break (Norman) reputably caused him to lose some of his ability including his banana shots , and jinking running style, a speciality in his early games which had people comparing him to Garrincha.
Remember him scoring against Liverpool with a swerving banana shot at Roker Park , Lawrence in goal that day I think but totally helpless such was the bend of the ball .
 
  • Like
Reactions: clockstander
Remember him scoring against Liverpool with a swerving banana shot at Roker Park , Lawrence in goal that day I think but totally helpless such was the bend of the ball .
Yes he was brilliant at set pieces, Kerr was probably the most exciting introduction in my memory span, can yo remember his headed goal against the Mags at Roker Park, he leapt above two 6 foot plus central defenders and planted it past a rooted keeper. Unbelievable.he really was .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Robertson
George Best. Pele said he was the best ever and he was a good judge of a player.
Didn't he also say the same about Maradona, Cruyff, di Stefano, Garrincha, Beckenbauer, Trappatoni, Zidane and quite a few others?

Must have been a nightmare getting a decision out of Pele.
 
Off the top of my head .
And not on playing merit but my favourites.
Gary Speed. Knew him. Very nice lad. Forgive him for Leeds and newcatshïte. Would of had him in a Sunderland shirt in a heartbeat.

Niall Quinn.
Best days of my life supporting Sunderland when he was here. Top bloke.

Tony Norman.
Best goalkeeper we've ever had imo.
Nice bloke, ex neighbour and bought me a beer <laugh>

Jimmy Thorpe.
My avatar pic.
Sadly lost his life after a game against Chelsea (scum).
Ok , a better goalie than Tony Norman :emoticon-0148-yes:.


A mention to Brian Clough. Should of been our manager after an outstanding playing career.


Bob Paisley.
We really need to learn from our past mistakes.

Fook arl them foreign fannies prancing about <laugh>
 
Tony Norman.
Best goalkeeper we've ever had imo.
Nice bloke, ex neighbour and bought me a beer <laugh>
<laugh>
Weren’t a Belmont lad were you? Tony signed my pot in 1990 when I broke my leg! His son went to primary school out the back of my grandma’s house
 
Weren’t a Belmont lad were you? Tony signed my pot in 1990 when I broke my leg! His son went to primary school out the back of my grandma’s house

No, a lot further back and a lot further away mate. He grew up over the fields from me in North Wales <laugh>

Gary Speed lived in the next street and Kevin Ratcliffe lived round the corner from him <laugh>
 
  • Like
Reactions: marcusblackcat
No, a lot further back and a lot further away mate. He grew up over the fields from me in North Wales <laugh>

Gary Speed lived in the next street and Kevin Ratcliffe lived round the corner from him <laugh>
Ah. Small, but not that small a world!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nig