It’s all horrible But war is, and there are always innocent victims unfortunately I pray for a ceasefire asap But what is equally baffling and upsetting is the millions of pro Palestine and anti Semetic/ anti western democracy supporters all over the world who believe nothing untoward happened on October 7th that caused the reaction from Israel and that innocent people weren’t kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered by terrorists They are in total denial and it’s wrong on every level
I don’t think many people deny what happened on Oct 7th was anything other than horrific, but equally the present level of killing of innocent Palestinians is not acceptable either.
46% of Muslims in this country are in denial that there was any wrongdoing by Hamas. That’s a lot of people Young British Muslims between the ages of 18 and 24 are becoming more radicalised, more anti west and anti British. And no one in power of any political persuasion or clout wants to talk about it. Any other religion it would be fine to discuss and debate and target wrongdoing, but as we've seen on countless occasions such as the grooming gangs scandal, it doesn't apply to followers of Islam for some reason But unless this is checked, and soon, we are sleep walking into serious social issues that will undoubtedly result in more innocent people losing their lives to the 40000 already under terror watch in this country. The focus needs to be on what’s brewing right here rather than what’s happening in Gaza sad though it is It’s not Islamophobia to call this out and ask why a country that gives these people everything seems to breed those who hate us and OUR values We rightly want British values and our way of life be maintained, but a lot of them want Sharia law, no acceptance of homosexuality, no rights for women and approve of calls for a Jihad Culturally we are at polar opposite ends of the spectrum, and something has to give. And it won't be us. If you live and take from a country that you call home, then you respect the laws and fundemental principles that are in place. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. And that applies to everyone.
I think Israel has a right to defend itself and what happened on October 7th must be punished. However, what is happening currently in Gaza and Rafah went far beyond Israel ‘defending itself’ ages ago. As Brits, we know what it’s like when terrorists attack. We had it happen to us many times with the IRA - particularly in the 70s and 80s - bombs in pubs, hotels and high streets. I wonder what the world (particularly the US) would have said if we had responded by blasting the hell out of cities in the Republic of Ireland in an attempt to get a few IRA members that melted away there after committing their atrocities? It’s not the fact that Israel is going after Hamas that concerns me, it’s their absolute indifference towards the huge collateral damage they are causing that appalls me. They’ve lost the moral high ground. Not only that - their behaviour is the best recruiting drive for Hamas that they could ever have hoped for. This isn’t about catching and punishing terrorists. It’s about revenge and recovering Netanyahu’s lost face.
That link is using stats provided by the Gaza health ministry. The Gaza health ministry that is operated by Hamas terrorists. The Hamas who are firing rockets into Israel from Rafah.
We’ve all seen footage on the news, whilst some of the stats may not be completely accurate, it’s generally accepted the thrust of the information is not wrong, even the IDF have admitted the latest incident took place, so I’m not sure what your point is.
Your point may, or may not be valid, it’s a whole different debate, for another day. This thread however is regarding the attacks on Gaza, and whether there’s anything the wider world can do to try to stop them. R&W makes the point that they’ve already gone to far. It’s a valid point. You say you can criticise Islam without being Islamophobic , equally it’s possible to criticise the actions of the Israeli government without being antisemitic
I don't think that Israel will willingly stop until they have totally destroyed anything to do with Hamas, and no matter what world/public opinions are, or any innocent bystanders that are in the way. In the latest attack on Rafa, Israel targeted and took out 2 high ranking Hamas leaders. Unfortunately it also killed innocent civilians. As I said before, war isn't fair and normal people get unwittingly caught up in it. Hamas are in charge of their people, not that they care about them when they hide arms factories under hospitals etc. Had they not carried out the unspeakable attrocities on 7th October none of this would be happening now.
R&W made the comparison to the IRA, had we Bombed the hell out of NI to get the perpetrators would that have been ok? . In answer to your question about the 7th Oct, no this wouldn’t be happening. There is still a question of proportionality though, is it ok for a Isreal to raise to the floor Gaza in their attempts to get to Hamas?, I’m not disputing Hamas need to be held accountable for what they did, but now I’m asking should Netanyahu be held accountable for his response?, . I’m also posing the question should/ can the wider West do anything to try to stop it.
The response from Israel is not targeted and measured. The difference between a terrorist and a non-terrorist is that the terrorist deliberately or randomly attacks targets with the intention of causing maximum carnage and spreading ‘terror’ amongst the population in order to destabilise the authorities. A non-terrorist, or ‘legitimate’ regime will use carefully targeted means of combat, with the intention of MINIMISING carnage. What we are seeing in Gaza is a terrorist act by Hamas provoking another terrorist act by an embarrassed and angry Israel. They won’t defeat Hamas this way. They will embolden them.
the palestinian people are the "guilty innocent" of the catastrophe that is unravelling. They took it upon themselves to vote in a terrorist party, OK rephase vote in a party that was affililated to terrorism. the terrorist part took the reigins and built the underground networks with the help of the local population .. would celebrate when the terrorist element fired at Israel, likely even provided shelter and food etc for them!!! SO it is not as clear cut as some would like it to be. It is sad that children are being killed especially not knowing the truth of why! You can say/ can add women to the children to that aspect but it is known a lot of women are in league with the terrorist element the only reasoning that is sound is why on OCT 7th .... same applies to RUSSIA / UKR one selfish act in Feb 2022 has killed in excess 50? - 60? -70? or more Russian troops many left to rot on the battlefield along with possibly 35000 UKR TROOPS and countless civilians and £bn's in damage
Well, the people that didn’t support Hamas back then will definitely support them now. And you can’t kill them all - there will always be some left. If it was possible then we would have eliminated the IRA back in the 1920s or again in the 1970s.
Even if they manage to kill all of Hamas, the way it’s been achieved means there will always be an equally hardline group to take its place, ordinary Palestinians aren’t going to be well disposed towards Israel seeing how they’ve flattened their country and killed many of their relatives are they, peaceful solution always Trump violent ones.
My point is context. Your link was using propaganda from the terrorist death cult Hamas. Yes we see footage from Rafa. Footage that is censured by the terrorist Hamas. The link doesn't provide the context of the City of Rafa's military significance. The City houses battalions of Hamas army, its complex of military tunnels and was used days ago to launch attacks on Tel Aviv days ago. Hamas are attempting to create the illusion that this is a war waged on civilians.
the response is cloudy and there is certainly a great deal of propaganda from the Hamas puppets that are being imposed upon them
It is possible But The people climbing all over our war memorials and wearing Hamas badges and clothing at the weekly protests are very anti Semetic. Groups threatening Jewish schools in London are very anti Semetic, as is virtually the whole of the middle east around Israel. Countries like Afghanistan, Iran and Lebanon who were once peaceful Buddhist, Christian and Christian again nations in that order, but who are now controlled by hard line Islamists who want nothing more than to erase the state of Israel and all it stands for. Well run (until recently), clean, orderly, peaceful (until provoked), prosperous, desirable The mirror image of everything those other nations around it are not. So is there some jealously of the state of Israel and what it has created for a place for its citizens to live, aside from the sheer hatred of their race ?
I think it’s more complicated than that Angelic. Israel ‘popped up’ in 1948 and declared itself in what was until then, Palestine. The Palestinians lost their identities and their rights at that point. In Israel, you get a vote if you are Jewish and you also have the automatic right to live there. If you are non-Jewish then you take your chance - and you dont get a vote. That’s not democratic. I do NOT in any way condone the appalling and unforgivable actions by Hamas, but I do understand why the Palestinian people feel aggrieved and they also feel that democracy is not an option for them - because they are not Jewish they will never be equal.
This is not true. A person if they possess Israeli citizenship can vote. Arab Israelis have representation in the Knesset (parliament). In the West Bank there are elections and Fatah governs. In Gaza there is no democracy. After the elections of 2006 Hamas murdered political opponents and there are no elections. I did not make a point about proportion. Your link used figures provided by a terrorist organisation. Yes those figures are Hamas propaganda. The images coming out of Gaza are controlled by Hamas. Thousands of Hamas terrorists are being killed but the images we see in the West are not those of those of the thousands of Hamas casualties. Hamas doesn't allow the pictures to be broadcast, going against the Hamas narrative is a death sentence for reporters.
