thank heavens for Hothead - a rational comment on my views. afcftw -sorry I think you are WAY Off the mark.
@hothead 1) wasn't sure what he was actualy saying so was more question from me than disagreeing with anything 2) I agree Nasri looked like he would leave but Wenger thought differently and misjudged the situation - can't be too hard on him for that. 3) Squillaci didn't work out too well but he looked good before he came to us and played so much imo. This was a purchase that didn't work out too well but we couldn't have got Mert or Cahill at the time so was a stop gap signing. 4) We both agree oxo is one for the future and has great potential. He will be used more sooner than 6 years time. And it's only taken walcott as long due to the fact he was 16 at the time and has had injuries - please remember he is only like 22. And since we had Gervinho and Walcott as our first choice with Arshavin/benayoon to come on and Miyaichi and oxo to fight for the back-up spot, rosicky able to play there etc.. We have good options out wide. When the signing was first made i was a little irriated by it but now it seems like a good addition to the squad. As for last year relying on Squillaci Djourou and Kosc. Koscielny was great last season - go and watch his performance against Barca and how he handled Messi and tell me he wasn't fantastic. He's been brilliant sicne he arrived with a few mistakes last season which now seem to be ironed out. Djourou also played really well for a good chunk of the season - i'll agree with you on squil though. But the point iwas argueing against "Bergkamp a Dutch master" was actualy about thsi seasons signings and since we got mert in and verm back from injury - samba would be an aweful signing instead of oxo and imo so would cahill. @Bergkamp a Dutch master Care to elaborate?
Nothing wrong with spending £15-20m on a player so long as the club have the spare funds (which we do) and in teh opinion of AW he improves the team, but in his view he hasn't found anybody. There are players who may only cost £5m that would add more value to the team than those who could cost £20m - the amount of money paid is sometimes just a signal of financial strength, not a considered business decision. It's about buying the right player for the right sum
Well said Too simplistic to say that we should have spent £20m on a couple of players and that would solve everything.
I think that this thread shows that fans have little tolerance for reality. After playing Football Manager where if you play perfectly you can win every time, people seem to think that the same is true in real life. Unfortunately after 14 seasons of nearly perfect management Wenger is still not appreciated. The world is not an even playing field, and no one can say (with any certainty) that if any other manager had been in charge of Arsenal over the same period Arsenal would not have been relegated. I never lost faith, mainly because I see the work and effort and love that the man puts into the club and I don't see that from many other managers. He is more intelligent and knows more about the game than any of us. You can all have an opinion, but really, lets face it, few of us have much of a clue what goes on behind the scenes and making any kind of judgement on his ability is nuts. Results may have been disappointing, but really based on what we spend or dont spend and how the only players we can sign are the ones that have been passed over by the other top clubs I don't think we do too badly.
That's a shame because it's where you miss out on the bigger picture. Toledo is right, it's far to easy to sit back and say - Wenger should have done this, done that, spent this, bought that player and it would have solved any problems. Without any actual knowledge of the internal workings of the club. I see it day in, day out in my job - people are quick to judge and condem without knowing anything about the internal dynamics of an organisation, negotiations, relationships, availability, sustainability etc. They take what they think is an objective and informed view, albeit missing the crucial understanding that only comes from being on the inside. In football in particular, it's easy and popularist to be controversial. 'Sack the manager, Sack the board' is a mantra often banded about in some kind of belief that shock and revolution will bring about postitve change, when in fact the evidence demontrates that it usually the opposite that happens. Perhaps you should have read the whole comment instead of dismissing it - because then you would have understood that this sentence in bold: He is more intelligent and knows more about the game than any of us. You can all have an opinion, but really, lets face it, few of us have much of a clue what goes on behind the scenes and making any kind of judgement on his ability is nuts. .....carries more credence than the views of any armchair fan on here.
It isn't too simplistic to say 'Spend £20m and everything will be solved' It's on the right track. For example, last season if we'd signed another CB/DM like Vertonghen, we could have won the league IMO, or at least one cup. And now, if we signed Mario Goetze tommorow, would you think 'Well, we could have got someone for 5 million that would be as good?'
No it's not Jayram. It's about recognising the reality of a situation, which is usually far from perfect and understanding that magic wands don't exist. It takes hard work, guile and experience to turn things around - not sacking the manager. Actually being controversial at the start of this season, meant sticking by Wenger and realising that he was the man to get us out of the predicament we were in - it was the nodding dog masses who were calling for his head at least on here anyway.
The point is, that's it's about a measured response. Nobody is saying that Wenger coulnd't have done things differently at times, I think he would probably admit that himself. But overall, he's always delivered at Arsenal, even when people have been saying that he's lost the plot and needs to be sacked (as they were at the beginning of the season) then he turns it around and proves them wrong. I just think people should look at the bigger picture instead of making knee jerk popularist soundbites.
You were one of the worst offenders with the pessimism and negativity. I'm not sure what you think you were right about, but it certainly wasn't the calling for Wenger to be sacked or his transfers in the summer which I believe you called panic buys. In fact I would argue that Wenger has proved you wrong in your negative assessment of our club and instead of Wenger, it's actually you who has changed your opinion, in order to save face.
I don't get statements like this. Where was Squillaci before we bought him? He'd played at Lyon and Sevilla, had played in the CL and was experienced. The kind of defender everyone on here wanted. He wasn't exactly rubbish. How many people could have predicted he would have flopped like he did? How can you say we would have won something if we signed ONE player? Someone who plays in the dutch league. It's not exactly known for it's high standard of defending. And anyone that thinks Samba can improve our defence needs their head checked.
Nice slant on it, but I think you'll find that I said that it would take time for this team to gel and that it was not surprising that we struggled initially. Rather than join in with the doom mongering, I actually realised that it was anything but a crisis. Wenger's actions have proved that he was right and deserved a bit more respect and trust, and proved that your negativity and pessimism was misplaced.
I don't believe we were in a crisis at all, that's just a meaningless tabloid soundbite. Talk to fans from Leeds, Wimbeldon (aka MK dons) Sheff Weds etc, they will tell you what a crisis is. What happened to Arsenal was that we had severe financial restrictions at a time when two or three clubs were spending money like it was going out of fashion. We had to take another path to them, which was one of austerity and developing players rather than buying the finished article. To a greater degree, it's been a success. We've finished in the top 4 every year and been challenging for the title too. It hasn't delivered a trophy, but only a cruel twist of luck in the CC final denied us that. I firmly believe that if Wenger hadn't been at the helm over the last 5 years, then we could quite easily already have found ourselves out of the Champions League and battling with a host of other teams for 5th and 6th.
I skipped a lot of what was written this page because it is just so wide of the mark: 1) Had we spent £20m on a player last season and £15m on a player this season, we would have 2 x £15-20m players in our team. Next year if we did the same, we'd have 3 quality players - much better than spending £40-50m on 1 quality player. The fact Wenger spends his money far too frugally is the reason why we have gone backwards in 7 seasons. 2) So what - Wenger has been a manager for years. Does that means he knows more than the likes of Keown, Hansen and every other ex footballer who have identified Arsenal's weaknesses for years and never seen them addressed ? Hansen won more as a player than Wenger as a manager !! Who knows more about football ? Andy Gray has watched more football than Wenger, does Wenger know more about football than him, for example ? The fact that many of us have the same opinion as pros and ex pros doesn't make our opinion any less valid. 3) The very fact that Wenger could've done things differently is the reason we are having this argument - Wenger could've done things differently but he refuses to and has taken us massively backwards. I couldn't give a toss how successful he has been in 15 years, during the last 7 he has gone backwards .. thats almost half his tenure. 4) How was Squillaci what we needed ? We all knew we needed a commanding experienced centre half, preferably with Premiership experience. Instead Wenger buys a guy not used to physical football who is not commanding at all albeit experienced. It was a pointless buy. What good is that experience when you can't defend ??? The guy is a perpetual mistake waiting to happen.
I said this earlier (or maybe in another thread) you can't argue with any In Wenger We Trust person because they can't argue, all they do is go bring up extreme circumstances and claim some sort of victory. Hogwash. How is worst start in 50 odd years NOT a crisis bloke ??? Your argument is weak, in fact, you have no argument. You don't need to be going into administration to be in a crisis. Chelsea are in a crisis. It is all RELATIVE. For Arsenal football club, one of the biggest clubs in world football, we WERE in crisis !
I disagree, a crisis for Arsenal would be finishing outside of the top 4 or getting into unsustainable debt. A true crisis is a club going into administration or having to sell their squad to stay solvent and getting relegated, a la Leeds Utd. All I can say is that I think your definition of a crisis is one based on panic and over reaction. You talk about blind faith, but that is an incorrect definition too. Wenger has proved that he is the right man for the job and therefore proved those who believed in him to be right.
That's just arrogant nonsense. I might not agree with Jayram (most of the time) or the Wenger out brigade, but I wouldn't dismiss their views as Hogwash. I would argue that your definition of crisis is over dramatic and disproportionate. Our worst start for 50+ years was not a crisis as apart from the Utd game, we were unlucky to lose those games. The margins in football are fine, we were never that far off - as is being demonstrated now.
