Yes, I acknowledge it is far too early to ask this without a cup or two of salt, but it has been playing on my mind in recent weeks. Our best runs of form and best performances seem to coincide when we play either/or, not both. I'm also wondering if Bissouma's collapse in form had anything to do with Bentancur's return to the side. And during Bentancur's absence, Maddison developed a habit of dropping really deep to receive possession and hasn't shaken that off, leading to multiple giveaways in dangerous areas and trying to operate in exactly the same areas as the Uruguayan. Like I said, too early for any serious debate but are we seeing signs, like the national side once upon a time, of the possibility that it might not be possible to have both of them on the pitch at the same time, especially if we want to get the most out of Biss and Sarr. Thoughts?
I do think it’s a bit early for that kind of talk. Maddison was dropping deep to pick up the ball when Bissouma was playing and on form at the start of the season. It’s kind of a feature of how Ange teams play, the 8s, FBs and to a lesser extent wingers all rotate a bit to pick up different positions. Happens on the right too with Sarr pulling wide as an out ball and Porro coming infield. I think Bentancur has his own issues in that 6 role which I talked a bit about on the Brighton thread. He’s still learning the positioning and when he needs to do what with the ball. We’ve a few players who are still coming back from knocks and intense international tournaments and Bentancur didn’t get pre-season so he’s learning the system on the job. Like I’ve mentioned elsewhere I think an elite 6 might be a wise investment in the summer but I also think this group can improve through the season as players get back into the rhythm of PL games and learn their roles better.
I think the fact that both players aren’t 100% fit - and likely won’t be for a bit longer - is a huge factor for any rustiness or lack of cohesion. Ally Gold’s even suggested that people at the club don’t believe we’ll see the best of Bentancur again until next season - which leaves me worrying that we’ve brought him back faaaar too early due to the injury crisis that was developing. If taking him out of the squad for a few weeks can result in his recovery going quicker then we should do so now that we have Maddison, Sarr and Bissouma all available. Then also add in that Brighton was the first time this season we’ve actually been able to have a choice between our first four midfielders will also be huge, though also a reminder that the likes of Maddison, Bentancur and Sarr/ Bissouma will need more games to find their cohesion. Bentancur never had a pre-season which won’t have helped. There’s also the fact that Son’s been away for the past month meaning creativity from deep can’t thrive as much due to Richarlison (despite recent goal return), Kulu, Johnson and especially Werner aren’t as potent or dangerous as Son is when receiving passes. But we saw what can happen when Son is on, within 30 mins he’s grabbing an assist after great play that involved Maddison passing through the lines. Once we’re fit and firing, I have complete faith that a midfield of Bentancur, Maddison and Sarr/ Bissouma can give any team’s midfield a run for its money when they’ve got guys like Sonny at top to aim for. I think we’re blessed with some very, very good midfielders, I’d say it’s the strongest area of our squad, it just likely needs a bit of time and work for it to hit its peak.
When Maddison was pulling the strings for Spurs earlier in the season before he was injured, Bentancur was out. When they have played together - fleetingly - it’s been when both have been returning from injury. So there is no reliable data from which any conclusions can be drawn. But, in general terms, Maddison is a very good no.10 and Bentancur is a no.8, so there is no reason why they shouldn’t be able to play together in principle. Maddison controls the ball and creates; Bentancur gets back and forth in midfield and is capable of making advanced runs and getting into good forward positions. Maddison is the lynchpin of the team and the type of player missing last season. Gerrard and Lampard were unique talents whose roles varied and had the attributes to play any midfield position at any time - but couldn’t perform those roles in the same team together (although international football raises different issues, which require further analysis).
It's an interesting point to raise and will surely get us all thinking and watching. There are all kinds of issues within any team both physical and mental. Does Bentancur take on more responsibility when Maddison is not there? Does he back off from this when he is? These are two very intelligent footballers so literally the thinking process is taking a bigger part in their games than some. Too early as others have said but it will be interesting to see how it pans out. I am not sure I agree with the concept of too early back in. If they can run about for an hour then aren't they fit enough? All the missing factors, and maybe the biggest one, confidence in their body, will not be fixed by sitting on the bench. If we can afford it, players should be allowed to play their way back to form, especially such vital players as Maddison and Bentancur or Son. Most managers seem to do this as the cry is often heard from fans. Too soon too soon! Sitting on the bench and coming on to make an impact is a skill in itself and it's an important part of the modern game. Players like Solskjaer, Milner, and Fairclough made vital contributions to their teams from the bench. Already Davies and Hojbjerg are showing that. It's not a luxury we have had much in recent years but now our squad is filling out this will develop as a weapon rather than a bandage for the team.
With a front three of Son + Richarlison + Maddison, then Bentancur is probably too much of a luxury. With Son + Maddison only, Bentancur can be accommodated.
My gut feeling is that this is about the fine balance between progressive and controlling midfielders. When we start with Maddison, Bentancur and Sarr, all three prefer a progressive approach to the game where they will default to trying something risky like taking on a man in a congested space or attempting an audacious through ball. It's lovely when it works, but when it doesn't it leaves us badly exposed. We don't have anyone solely or even mainly focused on simply controlling the middle third - be that through intercepting passes, tracking late runners, retaining possession or simply being a complete nuisance to the opposition's more creative players. Hojbjerg is not the answer to this. His positioning and tackling isn't nearly good enough to be a controller, while he isn't creative or daring enough to be a progressor. He is somewhat caught in the middle. Skipp is far closer to being a controller but he rarely starts when Maddison and Bentancur are both in the team, which is perhaps the root of the problem. Bissouma is the great unknown as he is similar to Hojbjerg in the sense that he has both skill sets, but in theory is a far better player so should be able to do both (although the last player we had who could do both to a high standard was Dembele, so those all-round midfielders are few and far between. In the PL, I'd say Rice is one of the best in the business. Globally, Bellingham is out on his own with open ocean all around him).
I'm largely in agreement with CK. It's about team balance and even our opponents. I think that we need one of Bissouma, Hojbjerg and Skipp in the side, but not more or less. Bentancur and Maddison aren't 100%, so benching one of them should be fine. We've had tons of injury and suspension issues this season, so approaching a full squad is nice. I'm probably going to regret posting that, as we'll get tons of issues now! Being able to call on quality from the bench should help us get over the line more often. The right choices still have to be made, though. Chucking on an additional defender isn't one, for me. Our shape is fine and they're used to it. An additional man back there causes chaos. Gerrard and Lampard wasn't an issue, anyway. It was weak management. They don't even play the same role. Could've picked both, Carrick, Scholes and Beckham and made it work.
Without meaning to derail my own thread, the Lampard/Gerrard thing was just a lazy comparison meant tongue in cheek. Anyway the bigger problem was how successive England managers played Scholes out of position (usually LM) in order to accommodate both and he, whilst a filthy little git, was simply the most talented player of the three. The question should never have been 'can we play Lampard and Gerrard together?' It was supposed to be 'which of the two gives way for Scholes?'
I’m in the camp of those that believe it will take 6 months for Bentancur to get up to speed and this will be achieved by playing regularly. I think it will work with both Bentancur and Maddison but give it time. Bentancur is effectively learning and adjusting to playing football again after being injured for some time.
That needn't have been an issue anyway, as Gerrard could play EW and it's not like there was anyone in the England squad who The FA were being forced into playing in every match by sponsors who just so happened to be a RW at the... Oh, right
He came back when he was ready and passed the fitness test. It was earlier than expected, but the quicker he returned and played matches, the quicker it’ll take to get back to his previous standard.
Often think this when someone has ‘come back too early’ didn’t he have a fitness test? wouldn’t he have had to pass it? the fitness test maybe flawed? manager over ruling medical team? Is that even allowed? If so, makes a mockery of the whole thing.
The fitness test is surely about whether the player is going to aggravate the injury they’ve recovered from, or cause a compensation injury, by returning to full training and matches. That’s separate from actual full match fitness (which is more cardio related) and understanding of his role in the system. It’s the latter two I think Bentancur is still working towards and why we’re seeing some iffy performances.
He also came back very quickly from his previous injury and wasn't 100% from it. We have options to help him ease back into the side. We should use them.
Bur why would it take him a further 6 months to get back to his actual level? I've never heard of such a thing in all my years following football, and yet Ally Gold reports it as if it is completely normal. Usually if a player needs that long to fully recover, it means they will never fully recover as the injury was simply too damaging.
