Racism is not subjective. It either is or it isn't. Sectarianism is not subjective. It either is or it isn't. Offensiveness is entirely subjective. The proposed legislation is not about that anyway. The Lord advocate said that this is not about people expressing robust, indeed offensive opinions sometimes adding that this is about people trying to cause trouble at games. I'd suggest that the majority of people singing these songs are not doing so to cause trouble. So why did you make the claim? I know loads of Celtic supporters who love the rebel songs. So I'll take the opposite stance. I know loads of boxing fans who are delighted at the stance Ali took against conscription. Barcelona fans who push Catalan independence. St Pauli fans fighting against fascism and intolerance. People who admire Jesse Owens for tearing down racial supremacy ideas, Tommie Smith and John Carlos, Robbie Fowler etc etc etc. The list is almost endless. If you asked the majority of sports fans if they feel sport is a richer place for these things then I am certain they'd agree with me. this isn't just about OOh OOH up the RA though is it? Is this some kind of trade off? Take that away and keep everything else?
Not true - you assert 'hun' is not sectarian. Others (including, apparently, the scottish police) assert it is. To use your argument (and be completely facetious) - do you have stats on that? And to be honest, I'm not arsed about the individual singing IRA pish - if he gets himself arrested under the new law, that his own problem - I'm concerned about the effects on my club's reputation at home and abroad. IRA chants are not widely regarded with great positivity in the UK. Because I firmly believe it to be true. I don't believe I'm so out of touch with the UK population as to have misjudged a general perception of 'IRA songs = good choice for footy chants in the UK' - of course I may be hideously mistaken. Good god - please tell me you're not telling me singing 'BOTOB' is even remotely similar to Jesse Owens winning 4 golds in front of Hitler. By and large it is actually. You get the odd rendition of BOTOB and the odd 'Oooh ahh up the Ra' and that's the extent of the GB's 'political' songbook. I firmly believe that these songs/chants do nothing to promote either republicanism nor the image of celtic and that a substantial proportion (desperately trying to avoid making claims I can't back up with stats) of people in the UK, football fans or otherwise, find them, at best, irrelevant and, at worst, very offensive. Given the potential for damaging our club, it is wilfully selfish to continue to sing them.
Admiral give up you won't get through to him he is and always will be a sympathizer that thinks IRA chants are appropriate at CP and away grounds
No it's not that simple... What happens if you have conflicting political views aired in a public area... public disorder! So, whay bring that to a stadium where a lot of people simply want to watch the sport. IRA chants are not sung at football to educate anybody on the Irish political situation, IMO. My arguement is not about the legislation BTW, it's about the trouble Celtic MAY find themselves in because fans will simply not listen until somethings happens (when it too late) - not a legal arguement, more about a rules arguement.
do they? Things are defined by law, that is not amongst them Nope, and I never claimed to. So this is specifically about legislating against the Celtic support? I am suggesting it is a political act. I firmly believe they do. there are many more songs that get an airing at one time or another. On the face of it, none of them can be considered remotely offensive. Unless you make a leap. I understand that your primary concern is Celtic. I firmly believe that it is because of this link that we are the club we are. Lose that and you lose some of the pull of the club. As for damaging the club, I don't think it matters a lick what Celtic do. They'll get pilloried anyway. You highlighted it in this very conversation. The term Hun is given some kind of added meaning that just isn't there. The only conceivable reason to do this is to act as some kind of perverse balancing up act. The support is being neutered and the club is rolling over and taking it. This whole thing started as a supposed offensive (pardon the pun) against sectarianism and here we are. The police praise those indulging in sectarianism and attack legitimate political expression. Regardless of your take on the appropriateness of the songs, that is exactly what has happened.
Any trouble Celtic find themselves in is because of a bullshit agenda on the part of the Scottish govt. Can we agree on that? Political ideals have always been exchanged in sporting arenas. The common experiences of the supporters ensured that there is no public disorder.
As I said, I'm not arguing about the "new" legislation... I agree with that part about bullshit and the SNP! Salmond is a band wagon jumping shyster! My view is based on opinions I've formed over a number of years. As a Scotsman, to be fair, I'm not intrested in Irish politics but I understand your views/opinions.
You are entitled to them. It would be foolish of me to deny you that. I know i am not going to win anyone over to my perspective but I hope that I can at least convince them it is a legitimate point opinion to hold and not be dismissed as an idiot as the OP has tried to do. I believe I am right and I may be wrong. Regardless of that, my position is a considered one.
Yes, apparently a member of the GB was arrested (after the Hibs game) for unveiling a banner with the word 'hun' on it. No, you 'suggested' the majority ya-di-ya-di-ya, I used your own tactics. No, I just don't give a **** about other clubs or groups of supporters. Well, you were comparing it with those other 'political acts'... You really believe 'Ooh ahh up the ra' as sung by the GB promotes irish republicanism?!!! I don't see how moving away from IRA songs should diminish our appeal as a club. Noone is asking celtic (or our support) to relinguish its irishness, and if they were I'd tell them to **** off in no uncertain terms. The question I keep coming back to is: Is there not a more positive (and less divisive) way of showing a support for irish republicanism within a football ground than singing or chanting about the IRA? Incidentally, I'm not supporting the wider political moves by the SNP - I've thought for many years that IRA songs are deeply, deeply damaging to the reputation of Celtic. Some political pandering to tabloid bullshit (shame game etc etc ) has not altered my opinion one way or other. Nonetheless, the reality is that now, in the current political climate, it does nobody any favours to persist in singing them.
There is no legal precedent in anywhere. yes, I suggested it, I deliberately never said it definitively....but that is being churlish. ok yeah ok. I am still saying it is a political act. I believe that singing Irish republican songs, awareness is raised. I am not restricting it to the just what some graffiti on a wall says. I don't know if there is or there isn't. I am, of course prepared to consider it but I know of a great many Celtic supporters whose political education began with songs and stories at CP. The current political climate is to de-politicise and neuter our support. At the next election when the turnout is 20% and people start to ask why it is that nobody is enthused by politics, the answer is a simple one. They took it away from you. Nobody knows because nobody is talking.
[video=youtube;ynI2PPlP_W8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynI2PPlP_W8&feature=player_embedded[/video] For those interested.
RB I'm working from the premise that you aren't an idiot. I assume that you have enough common sense to work out what is right and wrong. I also assume that you have enough about you to figure out what is right and wrong for Celtic. When the board, management and the vast majority of fans are making it clear that they do not want any singing of pro-IRA stuff, I would like to think that you can see the sense in that view and go along with it. Last night, I came in from work and turn on sky sports news. In the ticker tape at the bottom it read out that Celtic were going to have to answer charges of pro-IRA chanting. It would have made any right minded Celtic fan sick and embarrassed to see that We know that that behaviour goes on, but there is no excuse for it. Celtic are a football club, not a political party. They are not the focal point for an organisation who kills to achieve their aims. The IRA have nothing to do with Celtic. And Celtic have nothing to do with the IRA, except in the minds of people who sully the great reputation of our football club. I'm sure they don't set out to sully that reputation, but it is what they do. There is no reason for and no need for this chanting nonsense. It is at this point people choose whether they are an idiot or not. If they cannot or do not figure out that pro-IRA chanting is not what is wanted or needed, then these people are idiots. It is a choice for them and you to make.
