Match Day Thread Today's Games
- Thread starter ThaiCanary
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Duffy writhing in pain on the floor after making a slide tackle, looks like another CB injury.
Appears to be holding his shoulder, possible dislocation?
Appears to be holding his shoulder, possible dislocation?
Good test against a good side further into their preparations. Impressed by Barnes and Rowe up front but Sargent had a quiet game except for setting up Barnes' goal. Núñez looked sharp in midfield and Stacey and Duffy looked good in defence but some shaky moments for Giannoulis. AZ had more possession second half but only produced one shot on target that I recall and Krul saved that comfortably.
AZ much the better of the two. Second 45 mins spent largely in the Norwich half, which is the reverse of what Wagner wants; but with AZ unbeaten and already having won against three good teams, maybe the plan was to concentrate on defending (says I, think positively ......).
Definitely more than one shot on target for AZ in the second half, Rick; at least two, maybe three, saves by Krul, and one SOT blocked by Norwich bodies.
Definitely more than one shot on target for AZ in the second half, Rick; at least two, maybe three, saves by Krul, and one SOT blocked by Norwich bodies.
Decent team & we didn't get humiliated , Barnes looking like our new Grant Holt at times & dispatched his goal calmly with ease .
Full strength for the first few months of the season. If we get meaningful contributions from Sainz before December I'll be very happy, and the same for any future additions. 2 weeks from the start of the season and playing a style of football where the out-of-possession style requires close teamwork, it's going to be hard for anyone new to come in now and be up to speed, especially given we do have a relatively balanced squad and there's no current need to rush a new signing into the first team due to a lack of other options. We're at the point already where Wagner might well be judged by the fans before future signings can have an impact.
Having not watched any of pre-season beyond a couple of highlights, it's hard to make much judgement. My fears are:
- Favouring a counter-attacking style is fine. It would translate better upon promotion, and it suits the wingers we have. However, I think we need a little more final-third finesse/productivity to complement that, especially because teams will come to Norwich and park the bus. We need to be able to break teams down as well, and I'm a little concerned we're not going to have the spark to do that consistently.
- Our tactic of emptying the middle of the pitch when in possession is fine in principle (Arteta does it with Arsenal at times, it can work), but relies on us taking care of the ball and being press-resistant. Do we have the players to prevent teams winning the ball back and exploiting that central space? This squad is largely the same as last season, and last season we led the way in "mistakes leading to shots" across Europe. In the first 29 games of last season we made 18 such errors, and nobody else had made more than 9. If our approach will be to be more defensively solid and sacrifice attacking flair to achieve that, then cutting down those errors is going to be crucial, particularly if our tactics are opening ourselves up to potentially being exploited in transition.
- I think most of our team is solid, mid-table Championship, with a few top end players. Particularly at CB and in attacking areas, I think we're relying on resurgance/break-out from a few players to enable us to push beyond an 8-10th place finish. Obviously recruitment isn't complete, but right now we could do with one or more of Giannoulis, McCallum, Gibson, Duffy, Placheta, Onel, Tzolis, Rowe (Rashica?) turning in performances above what they've shown in the last couple of seasons. I'm not super confident in that group of players achieving that.
Agree that it will take time to integrate new players from this point - one of the things which contributed to our slow starts in recent seasons. Having watched all of the preseason games, though, the players we have signed have had time to integrate as have those returning, like Rowe, Placheta and Springett who are all working hard to adapt to Wagner's tactics. Barnes and Sargent are forming a good partnership and Stacey is doing the same with the wide players on the right. I'm convinced that both will produce more goals. Barnes, Stacey and Duffy have also brought a new injection of 'edge' and conviction which has rubbed off in their teammates.
Barnes has a Holt like nous in the box and Sargent has more space playing behind him. Both new players are excellent in the air and that will also make a difference. At the back, Duffy has brought a calm control in defence and his partnership with Gibson is developing with every game. Kellen Fisher is still 19, but has caught Wagner's eye as a possible backup for Stacey. In midfield Núñez, McLean and Gibbs are playing well and Sara is back in training and should get some time against Toulouse. At least Sainz will be able to integrate with his new teammates as he recovers. The last three games have pushed our players hard and they have responded well as the competition for places continues. The games to come will raise the bar further and give a good indication of how much progress being made.
Barnes has a Holt like nous in the box and Sargent has more space playing behind him. Both new players are excellent in the air and that will also make a difference. At the back, Duffy has brought a calm control in defence and his partnership with Gibson is developing with every game. Kellen Fisher is still 19, but has caught Wagner's eye as a possible backup for Stacey. In midfield Núñez, McLean and Gibbs are playing well and Sara is back in training and should get some time against Toulouse. At least Sainz will be able to integrate with his new teammates as he recovers. The last three games have pushed our players hard and they have responded well as the competition for places continues. The games to come will raise the bar further and give a good indication of how much progress being made.
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Everything Wagner has said, from the moment he joined, is that the approach is going to be Klopp-like, the antithesis of a counter-attacking style. DW likes his teams to play out from the back, but not to play around at the back inviting the opposition forward. On the contrary, the aim is to pin the opposition back in their own defensive third by getting the ball swiftly forward and keeping it there, utilising a high intensity, high energy, high press. Any team which comes and parks the bus will be doing half the job for us.
I think (hope) any contrary impression is simply down to the pre-season time-line, the current focus being on defensive solidity and speeding up offensive transitions, thus shaking off any hang-over from Farke-style tortoise-like progression, when we consistently registered the slowest attack speed in the division (except in our seasons in the EPL when we were outdone in that respect by Man City).
Re. your remark about the need for "a little more final-third finesse/productivity", nobody would disagree about productivity, and nobody would object to more finesse, but I don't think DW believes that the former depends crucially on the latter. As Klopp said in an interview with Jamie Carragher, counter-pressing plays the same role in the game as a playmaker, and "no playmaker in the world can be as good as a good counter-pressing situation." Goals come from creating chaos in the opposition defence and a "creative" AM isn't the only way of generating it.
Getting the ball swiftly forward can be done through short or intermediate passing. If the opposing team presses high, a quick, well placed intermediate pass into the next third can bypass the press to allow our forward players to attack before the defence settles. It may not be called counter-attacking, but the effect can be similar and we've used it as an option throughout the preseason to keep the opposition off balance.
As for the "final-third finesse/productivity", I read that as finesse producing outcomes in terms of chances and goals, rather than upping the workrate. Wagner's tactics are based on his desire for speed and intensity in attack, but that needs to be combined with skill and finesse to produce goals. That and an effective gegen press is also the key to keeping the ball in the opposition third to create pressure.
As for the "final-third finesse/productivity", I read that as finesse producing outcomes in terms of chances and goals, rather than upping the workrate. Wagner's tactics are based on his desire for speed and intensity in attack, but that needs to be combined with skill and finesse to produce goals. That and an effective gegen press is also the key to keeping the ball in the opposition third to create pressure.
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Further to my post above, my main concern centres on our defence, rather than attack. To compress play into the opposition third, you have to maintain a compressed formation yourself; the midfield must play high to support the front line, and the back line must play high in support of them. In essence, the CBs must hold a line no deeper than the radius of the centre circle, preferably closer to halfway. If possession is then lost and the high press fails, the opposition can counter just as we ourselves -- as Rick notes -- have been practicing in the recent friendlies.
Faced by this scenario, speed of retreat is crucial, and speed is not something with which, Hanley apart, any of our CBs or notional DMs (McLean, Sørensen) are particularly blessed. This places a huge responsibility on Gunn, who is clearly being encouraged to be more Ederson-like. But I think we need, in addition, a fleet-of-foot DM who, in such moments, can play as a sweeper.
Faced by this scenario, speed of retreat is crucial, and speed is not something with which, Hanley apart, any of our CBs or notional DMs (McLean, Sørensen) are particularly blessed. This places a huge responsibility on Gunn, who is clearly being encouraged to be more Ederson-like. But I think we need, in addition, a fleet-of-foot DM who, in such moments, can play as a sweeper.