I sincerely hope I know my stuff, it was my life as a student on placement, then a masters student and then six years working there for a variety of organisations including ALLMEP, the Peres Center and OneVoice among others. I met so many incredible people on both sides of the divide who spend every waking moment devoted to bringing peace. I lived in both Israel proper and the West Bank and breathed both sides of the story. I had clashes with extremists from both sides. Painful memories that were only worth it because I cling on to the belief that there are enough decent people out there to make this work...someway, somehow. Which I guess is why it does irk me a bit to come on here and see the ****e people come out with. Lazy, ignorant, reductive ****e. Sorry to be so blunt. But it is ****e that makes a mockery of those hundreds of people in the region and thousands across the world who have shunned money and glory in order to do the right thing. And it is equally an insult to those who have died in the conflict on both sides of the divide, to say that they died because the Knights Templar or Rothschild Space Laser Fund willed it to be so.
I was in the country at the time of the Gaza disengagement and let me tell you, it was at the brink of a civil war. Israelis cared so deeply about the issue - not necessarily the area of Gush Katif itself but the principle behind the disengagement which followed the demonstrably flawed philosophy of land for peace and relied on the all or nothing models pushed hard by well meaning but naiive western leaders. Which brings me to Camp David... Complicated for Ehud Barak who without question let his huge majority in the 10th Kenesset go to his head and attempted to deliver on two huge campaign promises: Final withdrawal from Lebanon and Final Peace with the PLO. In hindsight, delivering one of them (Lebanon) was a huge step in the right direction and he overstretched himself by hoping for both. Israel's electoral system makes such massive steps very difficult as an unhappy coalition partner can quit the govt and force a GE. Camp David floundered because it was billed (mainly by Clinton who saw it as Part II to his Oslo legacy) as the final all or nothing peace agreement that would end the conflict for all eternity hell yeah! This was naive. Oslo was barely 6 years old. The region was still reeling from the First Intifada, Rabin's assassination, suicide bombings and settlement expansion under the 9th Kenesset. Putting things on the table as complex and sensitive as sovereignty of Jerusalem and the Right of Return to name just two and then present them to the negotiators as 'take it or leave it' was doomed to fail. Far too much, far too soon. Barak's coalition partners refused to endorse half of what he was discussing, while Arafat similarly had his hands tied by both the Saudis (this is before they discovered football) and groups like Hamas and IJ. Had Camp David not tried to bite off too much in one go, it might have worked to at least advance the process one more decent step forward with an aim to meet again x years down the line. It also would've given Barak a fighting chance against Sharon. Instead he emerged looking like a failure who hadn't delivered on a campaign promise he was naive to make in the first place. Lebanon was already a massive achievement in its own right.
Fair point, and maybe it wasn't worded brilliantly. I was trying to highlight how Israel's actions, as a Jewish state act as a hypocrisy to the wider issue of Jewish persecution. The state of Israel is inextricably linked to Judaism and exists due to the displacement of Jews. So for Israel to enact this persecution on the native population of Palestine, grab land for Jewish settlers under the auspice of religious birth right, does bring the Jewish equation into the issue. That's unavoidable. And whilst it is the State of Israel and in particular the leaders of Likud who carry out these atrocities, and it should be them and not all Jews who are tarred with the same brush, when they do it under the auspices of Judaism it sullies the very ethos that was enshrined in the creation of Israel in the first place. I agree that no persecution should be forgotten or ignored. I think the world needs to wake up and act on the persecution meted out by Israel today, tomorrow and in the future, where as you say, the political support, trade, economy, tech and military afforded by the West, perpetuates these atrocities.
c Ariel Sharon was a cold blooded killer. 'The butcher of Beirut' A man with a history of massacre and reprisals.
You got your **** stirring spoon out tonight lol Anyway, I reckon Kane will know all about Sharon. Horrible ****ing piece of work. Ariel Sharon that is not @Citizen Kane.
I'm not sure what the solution to this is though. Fwiw, Jews around the world and especially here and in the USA are vocally opposed to the current Israeli government. Couple of previously unthinkable developments just this year include the historically right wing (religious, pro settlements etc.) youth movement Bnei Akiva UK coming out and distancing itself from the current govt, condemning numerous ministers for comments about both the Palestinians and LGB matters, even refusing to allow them to speak or share material at events and programmes. That was unprecedented. And just last week one of the largest and most important Jewish charities in the world, the UJIA, for the first time started enforcing conditions on activities and initiatives slated to be conducted across the Green Line. Again, unprecedented and previously unthinkable. Meanwhile across the pond, the vast majority of American Jews vote democrat and whereas the overwhelming majority (76%) consider Israel an important to their Jewish identity, fewer than 40% support the current government. There's a lot that is happening that you may not know about because you don't know where to look. Beyond this I suppose the question is just how much noise do we expect a people who constitute fewer than 0.2% of the world's population to make? Sure, if we believe, like some on here clearly do, that this 0.2% controls runs the whole world with some sort of hive mind, then sure - they should make a hell of a lot more noise, because they can. If we reject the tin foil though, it does get harder and you do begin to realise that a huge amount of the blindly (i.e. blunt refusal to ever condemn) pro-Israel rhetoric and noise comes from the Evangelical community in the USA which is large (90million), powerful (vote Republican), enormously wealthy and believes that the Second Coming cannot occur until such a time that the majority of world Jews live in Israel. Which is perfect for Netanyahu as he goes "is it ok if I put them in this settlement I built in this hill?" And 90million people who dominate the GOP (the party which again, the vast majority of US Jews do NOT vote for) all go 'sure dude'.
It's not because the point he is trying to make is extremely subtle and complex. But he has a poor signal in that tent and the Truro dogging starts in half an hour, so I'll let him off this time.
I wasn't expecting a solution tbh. I was just offering a reason why imo Jews are attacked. It's really no different to the thick twat in the video who threw a woman wearing a hijab down the steps of an Underground station after 7/7. I've always said the battle isn't between the jews and palestinians but between the moderates and the extremists, because they exist on both sides. Having said that, every now and again it's hard not to fall into a trap of wanting scorched earth syndrome. I watch the way western governments fawn over Ukraine with their fake claims of being defenders of a persecuted ppl and I think there's no chance of any peace while these bastards pick and choose who they defend and who they arm, not on moral or ethical grounds but because it serves their geopolitical aims. I posted a while back when they were boasting about supplying Ukraine with the latest guns, rifles, missiles, tanks to even things up against those evil Russians - fck it, do the same with the Palestinians and let them go toe to toe with Israel, fck it winner takes all. Probably not a very good idea lol but this sort of **** boils my piss. Anyway, Israel's completed its operation in Jenin and pulled out, so no one needs to talk about it anymore for another 3/4 years when it all kicks off again and round and round we go. In the meantime misery and persecution persist, a few more people lose their homes in Jerusalem, a few more settlements are built, a few more children and young men are taken during midnight raids and imprisoned, a few more apartment blocks are bombed in Gaza, a few more cars are driven into innocent folk in Tel Aviv, a few more missiles are fired onto farms and homes in Israel, a few more rocks are thrown. It's all fcking ****. If we're looking for a solution maybe both sides should start reading a few more books by Amos Oz and Yitzhak Laor instead and actually learn something and we might get somewhere.
I think its quite obvious why the uk government arms Ukraine. It's because they see Russia as a threat to European peace and security. Israel and Palestine are not. Why do people only get emotional about Palestine but stay quiet over Sudan and South Sudan? Or, what's happening with Yemen? Why is it okay for them to pick and choose which atrocities they side with and which atrocities they ignore?
All the ‘normal’ Jews shouldn’t support the Zionist Jews if they get touchy about this subject @Citizen Kane hasnt been paying attention if he thinks all the Jews are tarnished with the same brush This is a politics thread…it’s the ****s that get discussed. I can’t recall having an issue with my Jewish bros in Cheetham Hill, who like myself think the zionists in Isreal are ****s, who like myself think the Zionists are on their own blood fuelled agenda and hide behind the teachings of the Torah, having read it and taken the words for their own selfish ends….a bit like ISIS…who the whole West and its media has been vilifying ever since they turned up(rightly so) but the stench of hypocrisy in the West and Orthodox Jews is quite stinky…bar a few.
It all boils down to power. People with power will always abuse it over those who don't- IF they can get away with it. Despite all the UN resolutions, nothing has ever been done to stop Israel abusing power so it continues. Religion is the excuse, not the reason. Completely unfair to blame what is happening on "Jews", it's purely the Israeli state (and to a lesser degree the Western states that support them) that allow this to go on.
Uncle Sam is sending cluster bombs to Ukraine after telling the world it would be a war crime if Russia used them. Russian frontlines will be wiped out in numbers when these are dropped.
