I understand what you are saying mate, but when I read Trebs stuff it's like he's got family out there or something. Many atrocities happen in the world, I just wonder why he is so passionate about Israel or Palestine.
First the disabled toilets and now this. That's two out of two, well almost. I have friends who grew up out there and either live here or continue to live out there, who I've known for almost 28 yrs, and their families, so I became aware of it back then and have followed it since. Having known the ****e they've gone through, well it really boils my piss although it may not always be apparent But that doesn't really answer your question. Why am I so passionate about it? It's not just that I think it's the single biggest remaining bare-faced atrocity that continues in the world today for as long as it has (after South African apartheid). It's more the fact that it's the one atrocity that western countries have actively supported and enabled to continue. And we should be ashamed. The people out there have been abandoned to their misery and we're complicit in that. The way I see it, if our government stood clearly on the right side of the line against Israel's continued land grab, illegal occupation, and persecution of Palestinians, and at the very least were vocal in their condemnation of who is in the wrong here, who is breaking international law (like they've done with Russia, China, Saddam, and pretty much every oppressor in the world) then I and many others wouldn't need to.
Zionism, at least in its political form, is the misbegotten child of relentless western anti-Semitism, most of which historically was church sponsored, which then shifted to state sponsored after the enlightenment failed and gave way to nationalism. So yes, in the much much wider picture, the west does have a huge amount to answer for. As it does pretty much across the globe.
It is worth adding that EU countries have contributed by far the most financial aid to the Palestinians since Oslo I. Last I checked it was around 53% of all global donations, which far exceeds those of North America and the Arab League (which is now too busy buying up football to really give a toss about regional peace). Just an interesting aside which I've often wondered about, perhaps it is driven by post Colonial/Imperial guilt for basically screwing the entire region from Tangier to Tehran after the great Empires broke up.
I posted this about 10 pages ago... And although it was the case for Jews across a lot of Europe, I was specifically referencing France from late 1800's iirc.
France was important but Germany (Prussia) was equally so, especially as nationalism there under the Kaiser and Bismark wrecked the faint promise of enlightenment brought by Napoleon. Those countries provided the intelligentsia behind the movement but neither had large enough Jewish populations to drive it, especially as the majority of their Jewish populations were thoroughly assimilated and many had even converted to Christianity in an attempt to integrate into higher society. To understand where the groundswell of support came from, we turn to Czarist Russia which was home to close to 5 million Jews in the 1800s, an era defined by the most abysmal persecution under Alexander and the Nikolai's. Regular pogroms, blood libels, restriction on movement, jobs and education, strict censorship of religious teachings and forced conscription of all Jewish boys into the Imperial Army from the age of 12 to the age of 25 (specifically targeting the population before it reached the age of 13 and became an adult in Jewish law) to name just a few brutal lows of the era. It is so simple to understand in this context why Jews were such prominent Socialists and agitated for total revolution. Others sought an alternative solution which was political Zionism. The anti Semitism of western Europe post Enlightenment until the Holocaust was largely subtle, sporadic and focused on excluding or barring rather than outright persecution. It was rarely state sponsored although local govt often turned a blind eye. The anti Semitism of Russia was merciless, overt, state sponsored and focused on causing outright suffering.
Sorry didn't spot that and kudos on a really succinct summary. Although the Jews didn't "walk away" from ancient Israel. They were forcibly exiled by the Babylonian, Assyrian and Roman empires respectively. Kept coming back too, such was their attachment to the land, until Hadrian basically had enough of the resistance and declared the whole country Judenrein in the early second century. Apart from a few remaining settlements in the north of the country he was basically successful. I believe Tacitus and Josephus cite the number of Jewish towns razed to the ground by his armies in the thousands with a minimum estimated 200,000 Jewish casualties in the campaign. So there you have it, the Scottish and the Jews have something in common. A hatred of Emperor Hadrian.
You’d think with all that ‘persecution’ they would be a bit more humble as a nation and absolutely understand the affects of such behaviour But all I see is typical symptoms of a bully being displayed by them forever more usually bullies once you delve into their pasts will display evidence of having been bullied themselves. That’s Isreal so today here and now…they are the bullies. you’d think as a people they would have grown by now but no…they just prefer to be amongst the scum of the earth…until their time comes again for a humbling.
The whole 'We must never forget' the persecution of Jews rings hollow when the state of Israel actively persecutes the native Palestinians Hiding behind the anti-semitism cloak, when people criticise their actions is also cowardice.
Yeah I’m going to spend my whole lifetime thinking, crying and over sympathising about their ‘persecution’ when my own mother and father went through ‘persecution’ as Muslims in India. but schools don’t teach us that so it must not have happened.
It is but by the same token it is disingenuous to hold all Jews globally to account for Israel's actions, especially considering the majority of American Jews do not support the current government there and sentiment is rapidly heading in that direction too here. It is the same absurdity as holding all Muslims to account for the actions of a minority in a specific country. That's why reading total ****e from multiple posters on here about some Jewish cabal controlling the entire world is both worrying and indicative of a scary tendency to lump all Jews into the same category. We might as well hold all Christians to account for the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church if this is the line of argument we are happy to pursue on a public forum. It is maddeningly unhelpful and tbh quite sad that people reduce one of the most ancient and complex corners of the world to the by product of 18th century tin foil hat conspiracy theories. This was hammered home for me a number of years ago during Operation Pillar of Defense in Gaza when I was on my way to a bipartisan conference in Euston with a colleague of mine who visibly identifies as a Jew. As we exited Warren Street we were accosted by two men whose ethnicity I won't mention as it isn't helpful, one of whom shoved him against a wall while the other shouted in his face "let's see how you like it! How does this feel? Now you know how the Palestinians feel!". I was speechless. He remained remarkably calm, looked the guy in the eyes and simply said: "I am a British citizen. I do not hold Israeli citizenship so I could not vote the current government out of power even if I wanted to. I have no intention to take up Israeli citizenship as my whole family and work is based here in the UK. Why then do you connect Israel to me, holding me responsible for what they do?" There is a fine line between legitimate criticism of Israel and willfully falling into the lazy, tired tin foil hat set of arguments and tbh you only need to read through this thread to see how easily people cross that line. One of the reasons I will engage Treble in conversation is that even though we clearly differ radically in our opinions, he has educated himself in the background context and political history of the conflict and draws on that knowledge in making his argument, which I respect. 90% of the comments on here are however lazy, reductive and broadcast the posters' profound ignorance of the topic.
TLDR Fooking hell, you write as much as Treble too! I did read actually, but don't tell Trebs ffs! One question, what did the Westboro Baptist Church do? Actually forget that, I've done my read quota for today, I need to lay down now.
That humbling has never been further away, which is one of the reasons people like Netanyahu keep rising to power, as much as I'd love a viable alternative who is genuinely committed to the peace process. Apathy is sadly the word on the street at the moment. The Sunni world is too busy buying up football to care much for the Palestinians, while the Shia world has lost an enormous amount of clout due to Russia's insane decisions on recent years. Meanwhile the USA hasn't engaged seriously with the issue since 2014 and the Eurozone has been in survival mode since COVID. And I don't say this at all flippantly but the recent operation was one of the most measured and calm in the conflict's entire history. I know that sounds mad but if you've followed the pattern of Israel operations and Palestinian response to them, you'll know what I'm talking about. I had a chat about this last night with a PA official who I built a good relationship with over the years. He has no love for Israel but also despises Mahmoud Abbas. He said something that kept me up for hours last night: When there is no appetite for war, there is no appetite for peace. I'm still working that through.
