The Hornet's Nest

The difference being that Mme. Sarkozy is Italian.

 

Ah, Italian girls, now we are talking and don't get me started on Spanish one's....phewwwwwwwwwwwwww

 

That is exactly the point Ak. The recent movement to make poppy wearing virtually compulsory is tantamount to the opposite of the very freedom espoused by those who advocate war as a means of defending freedom.

My position is that for those who agree with poppy day and everything that goes with it - that is fine. But please allow those of us who for our own very good reasons disagree to be entitled not to wear them. For me their association with war which is always a political act means they are tainted. People die or are injured in very many ways but not surprisingly it is only war casualties that are "remembered" in this way.

It is the media - encouraged by successive governments - who have stirred up poppy wearing to near fanatical levels. Only a few years ago poppies came out in the week leading up to 11th - now they are around for more than a month before. Go back 5 years and try to find any footballer wearing a poppy symbol on his shirt - I did a little "research" this weekend and found that not only did clubs have poppies on all of their shirts but every contestant on X factor and Strictly together with judges all wear poppies. Does anyone believe that 100% of people wearing them are doing so through personal choice?

I believe in democracy and individual freedom - what the wars were supposedly fought to preserve - but this is eroded by the recent dictatorial trend - thanks to the likes of the Sun, Mail, BBC and other media sponsored by the government - that has only one aim - to keep young men signing up to fight in their undeserved and unacceptable wars like Afghanistan

 

Was that a new slant on The Big Bang Theory?

 

Utter tosh.....who is being persecuted? This so called Poppy facism is just being created by those that completely oppose the wearing of Poppies who then point out that the desire of the vast majority of the people in this country to wear them as kowtowing to the government. Just what eveidence is there that anybody is being forced to wear a Poppy? It is just ridiculous to suggest that the government has any influence over what the idiots in X factor wear or do not wear...and rather disparaging to those that choose to join the armed forces to suggest that the only reason they did so was because they saw someone on the TV or a footballer wearing a Poppy.

An all time low in crassness has been seen in The Nest this afternoon.

 

Whether war is right or wrong, the fact that, in some cases, teenagers almost 10 years my junior sacrificed their lives for what they believed was for the good of the country, to enable me to live the life I do now, is reason for me to wear a poppy.

Would I risk my life for a cause that could benefit future generations? No, I wouldn't, and for that reason I have the utmost respect for the people that did.

 

I hope that is not intended to count as a contribution to the debate

 

BBW - I think we are all agreed that people who choose to wear poppies do so for excellent reasons of their own choice. For me that is not what this debate is about - this is about individual freedom - which includes the right NOT to wear a poppy

 

I think there was a technical melt down, we now have the full arguement from W_Y. I have to say i did wonder as its not usually W_Y's nature.

 

I dont think anyone would disagree with you there, it is the individual's choice, but the issue i think people have and i certainly have is that Sepp Blatter is making that decision for the national team. And from what i can see he has made that based no reasonable reasons and on his own personal beliefs.

 

Sorry, I may have enetered a discussion without fully reading the past posts!

But, to me, that sounds like a bit of a poor excuse to not wear a poppy. Just to express your individual right.

Surely, as a man who hails "individual freedom", you should be paying tribute to the people who have enabled you to live this sort of life? The people who have given up their live's for the country?

I can't imagine the people who lost their lives in WW1 did it for any political gain, or even fully understood the reasons for the war. I imagine they fought for the country because "it was the right thing to do". For that reason alone, these people should be respected.

 

Well said BBW but this is not just about WW1 or WW2 but about all conflicts to keep Britain Free. When I was young there was soldiers from the Boar Wars as well as WW1 veterains at rememberance services. I as a young policeman in the 1970's proudly lined the streets as these old soldiers marched past the cenotaph to give respect to their comrades that had fallen to keep this country free (to choose to wear a poppy or not). These lines of soldiers didn't go on just for the short time you saw on television, I would be there up to 5.00pm as they still filed past in the dark.

In respect to them I was proud to see the poppy on the chests of those Golden Boys on Saturday and on all of the news presenters and people walking the street. Yes for at least once a year we should remember them.

 

FIFA’s regulations stipulate a players’ kit should not ‘carry any political, religious or commercial messages’.

You might argue as Leo has that a poppy is a political symbol although I have my doubts. Religious hardly. So is it commercial?

I would have thought that nearly every team breaks the FIFA ruling with the blatant commercial advertising that appears on shirts. Are we to say that a team should not advertise a product because it could upset a fellow manufacturer in a different country?

When will this ridiculous body stop interfering in matters that should be of no concern to them?

 

Really must take issue with you here.

Taken from the obituary column in today's Centre Presse
Monsieur Roger Guyon aged 95
Monsieur Henri Dupre aged 97
Madame Louise Mallereau aged 100

Take my point? Just into middle age.

 

I suspect that you may be wrong there BBW - not in that they should be respected, but in their reasons for fighting. I have no empirical evidence for this - only the words of both my grandfathers, both of whom fought in WW1. In their words - even before conscription, the volunteers felt pressured by the weight of community opinion. Even after running out of volunteers, community opinion still held sway. That opinion was not so much that 'fighting is the right thing to do', but more a case of 'not fighting is the wrong thing, cowardice, not British etc etc'. If they fought, they more than likely lost their lives or were maimed. If they were maimed, they were discarded by their government. If they refused to fight, they were vilified within their communities. Some choice, eh? And who was at the heart of this stirring up of community opinion? The upper classes - the government of the day. Unacceptable behaviour to my mind. It simply fills me with disgust when modern day powers-that-be still try to impose their opinions on the community, still join in the centre stage to gain kudos by being seen to the forefront of remembrance services.

That's why I won't wear a poppy. I prefer to remember my grandparents - both maimed on WW1 - and several mates who died in Vietnam in the way they would appreciate best. I raise a silent glass to them.

But I'm perfectly happy for others to remember in their own way - and if they want to wear a poppy, fair play to them. I would just rather that I didn't have to explain myself to people in the street, to shop assistants, to kids in schools or to anyone who feels the need to berate me for not wearing one.

 

Fifa initially refused to allow additional marks to team kits, arguing that it would lead to other countries making requests to commemorate events on their shirts.

In response to FA chairman David Bernstein's continued arguments for special dispensation for Sunday’s match, Fifa has now reiterated its stance that they do not wish to create a precedent that could in future cloud a match with provocative political differences.

The statement issued by Fifa read: “Fifa has 208 Member Associations and the same regulations are applied globally, and uniformly, in the event of similar requests by other nations to commemorate historical events.”

The regulations concerned stipulate that “The team of a player whose basic compulsory (playing) equipment has political, religious or personal slogans or statements will be sanctioned by the competition organiser or by Fifa.”

Despite Fifa’s refusal to allow poppies to be displayed on the shirts, the FA have been given permission to hold a minute’s silence before the game against the world champions.


With regards to the rules - I think you will find it is for International Kits.

 

If you are going to get insulting I shall stop reading your comments on this - you may not agree with my arguments but to call them crass is itself ridiculous - you are red carded

 

I can think of no better example of freedom but to make up your mind what you believe and then follow your beliefs not the herd. As it happens I think a lot of people who fought in WW1 and 2 had no choice - but to say for the umpteenth time - it is not about respect or lack of it for individuals - it is about the current fad towards demonising everyone who does not wear a poppy.

 

OFH - war is politics - sorry but it is nothiing else and poppy day is only about remembering those in conflicts - ie war.

 

Yes there is, it is just so difficult people watching in Paris, so many beautiful women so little time