Over the course of the season, my opinion of Mark Webber's driving ability has lowered substantially. He is yet to win a race, whereas his teammate is in double figures. So does that mean Mark is on the decline, or has his team-mate upped his game? If you look at the facts, you could argue a case for both possibilities. I'll do it in order; 1) It can be argued that Webber has declined massively compared to last season, and his pace has deserted him. However, a number of variables come into play with this statement. For instance, this year's car is definitely built around SV, and Vettel has a far different driving style to Webber, which could account for a lack of confidence in the car, and thus, a lack of pace. The new tyres play a role too, making Webber's hard charging style redundant, as he needs an extra stop in comparison to his team mate. But on the flip side, this years car is far better than last years, when Webber scored a few victories. So maybe we are seeing Webbers pace evaporate, leaving him looking rather average in a car that isn't average. 2) There is no doubting that Vettel has upped his game, but surely not significantly enough to allow him to thoroughly humiliate Webber. Last season they were fairly even, so even accounting for Vettels added maturity, that should still only give him a couple of tenths per lap, whereas in India, Vettel was consistently faster than Webber by more than half a second. Maybe the first point can be combined with this, the fact that the RB7 is built for Vettel, whereas the RB6 was designed as a neutral car. So looking at the evidence, is Mark a help or hindrance to Red Bull? You could argue that his developement ability allowed the progression of the Red Bull team from midfield runners to world beaters, along with the design genius of Adrian Newey. Having a guy who knows the car well can seriously help with developing a car over a season, and if the progression of the RB5 and RB6 was anything to guy by, the guy does a good job there. But it can also be argued that his lack of pace could hurt Red Bull in a season when the car isn't so strong, and someone younger, hungrier and faster (maybe Jaime Alguersuari, Sebastian Buemi etc.) could help them clinch even more drivers titles, but, ironically, at the expense of car developement. What's your views? Is Webber a help or hindrance to Red Bull in their quest to dominate F1?
Webber has obviously not been able to get on top of the tyres for whatever reasons which has affected his performance, but Red Bull clearly want all their race wins to go to Vettel (this is not a bash on Vettel so calm down) which obviously is not going to allow him to perform to his best. In regards to if Mark Webber is a liability to Red Bull I would say certainly not, if he was barely scoring points or putting serious pressure on Vettel then he would be a hindrance to Red Bull. As it is he is scoring good points regularly helping Red Bull win the WCC while not putting any pressure on Vettel, so at the moment from a Red Bull point of view he is perfect for them.
On the basis of your second point, that basically describes Massa's performance for Ferrari this season. Consistently scoring points without threatening his team mate, yet everyone is calling for Massa to be fired. We live in a weird world. On the first point, there is nothing wrong with saying Red Bull want Vettel to win all those races, it would appear to be true. They've put all their eggs in his basket, and they need him to deliver.
Its because of the pace of the Red Bull. It is so good they could nearly win the WCC with one driver. So Webbers poor performance affects them less. If the field gets closer and Webber keeps performin as he is the calls for him to be sacked will flood in. One statistic that says everything you need to know about Webber in 2011. Vettel has 10 race wins. Webber has only managed second twice.
It's not that weird and isn't really fair on Webber. He's been on the podium 9 times this season whereas Massa hasn't managed it once, which means (more importantly) that he takes points away from Button, Hamilton and Alonso. Massa doesn't, that's why people want Massa out.
Some interesting theorising in your original post here Kyle. I think your assessment of Newey's design being based around Vettel is one of the biggest factors; after all, they decided to tie their respective contracts when they came up for renewal at the beginning of the 2011 season. But in my opinion, the mutual intention for them to do this has existed for far longer; extending at least back to 2009 (yes, 2009; not 2010), and perhaps even earlier!
That's only because of the car. A driver underperforming the in the RB7 means they are fighting McLaren and Alonso for a place on the podium. A driver underperforming the the F150 means they are stuck in 6th, occasionally fighting with Mercedes.
It would be interesting if say Vettel had a engine failure in Q1 and had to start at the back. Would Webber do better without the pressure of a team mate being in front and getting first dibs on stops and the like?
Not wholly fair, there has been some debate on here about who some people think should replace Webber. I think Massa gets mentioned more due to his inability to not tangle with a certain driver of a silver car!
Some mini stats Massa has 43% of Alonso's points Webbers has 59% of Vettel's points Hamilton has 84% of Button's points When your second driver is getting less than half the points your first driver is getting you know you have issues. (As for a Massa replacement Perez has 52% of Kobi's points, second best rookie behind di Resta's 70% haul compared to Sutil)
Mini stats don't mean much though. For example: - Massa has had a lot of bad luck - including inferior strategy, poor pitstops and being the victim of Hamilton's on-track stupidity. - Perez has outdriven Kobayashi this year - but he missed the two races where Sauber were most competitive (the two places where Kobayashi picked up a big points haul - which is the only thing keeping Kobayashi ahead of Perez at the moment). Perez has also been able to get the car in the points often in the second half of the season - something which Kobayashi has been unable to do - quite impressive given that Perez took "3 or 4 races" to get back to 100% after his crash.
Even allowing for the 'incidents' with Massa/Hamilton he was behind Alonso when these all occurred. His race pace has generally been far behind Alonso on alomst every occasion this year, even if he has started to sort out his quali.. That is not just bad luck. It's bad driving too.
Interestingly Perez's average finishing position (when he finishes) is almost exactly one behind Kobi (pretty good for a rookie) Kobi = 10.69 Perez = 11.63 (Sutil and di Resta are 10.27 and 11.38 but I can't be bothered to continue for Massa, Webber et al)
Perez is scoring points with a bad car yet Kamui cant at the moment. He is also beating Kamui at qualifying regularly at this part of the season. 7-9 to Kamui at the moment, but Perez looks to be finishing stronger.
IMO opinion Webber is perfect for Red Bull; fast enough to be at the sharp end of the points on a regular basis but either not fast enough or disadvantaged enough not to be an outright threat to Vettle.
who knows where the truth lies , i for one dont believe that any driver let alone webber all of a sudden has a talent bypass for one season as there is no logical explanation for that , people may not agree with me but i personally dont think the red bull has been the absolute class of the field , mclaren i strongly think has been a very good match and sometimes better than the RB7 , so in effect webber has been up against 3 drivers with equipment of a similar performance level to his own RB7 which might explain why he is not closer to vettel , hence why people naturally think that webber has suddenly turned into a chocolot teapot -----
There is a logical explanation - Webber's natural driving style doesn't suit the car or the tyres, but Vettel's style does. It also seems that Newey and co. are content with Webber struggling - they certainly haven't done much to help Webber extract more performance from the car. McLaren have often been up there with Red Bull on Sundays, many times they are a bit quicker - but I think both Hamilton and Button have let McLaren down this year - they could take taken a few more pole positions and wins. I'm trying to explain this without contradicting myself. I hope you understand what I mean.
understand exactly where you are coming from forza , hamilton has had a poor season given the competitivness of his car , button has his qualifying flaw , which to me indicates that neither of the mclaren drivers have been at the absolute top of there games - vettel has clearly moved up a level since his first WDC , hence why i believe webber has struggled to keep up with him --
To put some minds at rest, what is the Mercedes % points for both drivers? ... MSC has 93% of ROS's points.
Why are excuses being made for Webber and the tyres, yet Hamilton is not being given the same excuse for some of his poor performances? How do we know he is not struggling to cope with the tyres and henve Buton is closer in terms of speed this year than last year? As Xig has correctly said about Webber, you don't just become a bad driver overnight. Just a thought, but some are too quick to put the knife in on some yet make excuses for others.
