The Hornet's Nest

Agree with you on both those points Leo. I won't 'wear a poppy with pride' because I cannot separate the dual issues of respect for/remembrance of the fallen and my disgust that men could effectively be ordered by their own people to go to their death without complaint, for spurious reasons, whilst those doing the ordering basically sat back and watched. It doesn't worry me that others want to show respect in this way - it does annoy me though, that, as a teacher, I'm obligated to promote one viewpoint only to children in my classes.

What stirred me into protest mode in this instance was simply my annoyance that FIFA (and probably Blatter in particular) are so far up themselves that they see they have the right to dictate their viewpoint to everyone else - on a matter that has absolutely no connection with football. That irks me considerably, and, I suspect, quite a few others.

 

I understand that BB but the explanation I saw given was precisely that if Iran chose to wear a symbol that happened to display their hatred of Jews or the Argentinians their claim to the "Malvinas" we have the thin end of the wedge. Poppy Day = War; War= Politics; Keep them apart. Why do footballers have to be dragged into this - is anyone proposing asking them if they want to wear a Poppy - and woe-betide one who refused - the press would vilify them

Keep Poppy Day special for those who want to observe it - dont force everyone

 

valid point Leo , But I choose to remember those who have given their lives to allow us to have the democracy we enjoy now, even the PC and lack of common sense part of our democracy! The alternative would be to speculate on whether we would now be conversing in german !

For those that fell to protect us and our way of life, let us never forget!

 

That is your right of course and to paraphrase someone else's quote I would defend to the death your right to your views. That though is not this debate. The debate is whether this political act should be mixed with football. Make no mistake Poppy Day is political. For those who support it - great. However it should not be forced on those who don't - in fact that devalues the whole thing. Try to find someone appearing on TV in a news or current affairs programme at the moment who is not wearing a poppy. You can decide whether 100% of people choose to wear one or whether it is just political correctness

 

I thought I remembered this discussion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...-News-presenter-in-new-poppy-fascism-row.html

 

I have absolutely no problem with someone choosing not to wear a poppy and if any footballer did not choose to do so, then that's his right - just as it is the right of those that wish to mark their respect of those who have sacrificed so much to wear one during this week.

I take heart from the fact that it because of those sacrifices we have these rights to choose...

 

Thanks Betty - I have tried to avoid the term Poppy Fascism for fear of winding others up as that was certainly not my intention but I do agree that it is tantamount to that

 

We are agreed then WY on that aspect - where we disagree is on allowing a "team" game to be used for remembrance - those that chose not to would inevitably be subject to unfair abuse as not everyone is as reasonable as those on this board.

 

Lenny - so you would be OK to ban footballers or TV presenters to wear poppies at all just in case those that choose not to are questioned over their stance? You raised the point regarding TV presenters and they would get just as much abuse as footballers in the Torygraph, Daily Male and their own Twitter and FB accounts.

 

I fully understand what you are saying Leo and respect what you say, however i must say i disagree.

Yes i do agree that wars are fought for mostly political reasons, i say that the brave men and women who fight them are not politicians. They are simply men and women who put their lives on the line so that we can sit in our comfy armchairs and drink tea and do so in safety. They make the ultimate sacrifice for people they will never know and have never met. They do this with courage and honor and i think they should be commended and remembered for this. There is no way to ever thank them for this so the least we can do is make sure they never get forgotten. If it is wrong that i respect them and thank them then this is one time i am happy to be wrong!!

I remember studying these in english and they still bring a tear to my eye.

Dulce et Decorum est- Wilfred Owen.
[video=youtube;Qts3K3KznN4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qts3K3KznN4&feature=related[/video]
[video=youtube;OzpW3u8XR6s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzpW3u8XR6s[/video]

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it

 

I do love a good well reasoned debate and in my humble opinion this is a good one.

Although I know that I have mentioned it before, there is a memorial in the woods close to where I live now. It lists the names of six young men who were executed by the retreating Nazis. They were not conscripted but felt that the regime of terror that existed had to be resisted. As members of the Marquis they tried to disrupt the brutal forces that came into the villages, murdered the inhabitants including babies, and stole the little food available to the poor who struggled in the best of times to feed their families. Under such an animal regime they did what they felt they had to do, and I wonder if in those circumstances if I could have stayed clear and said I will accept what is happening.

Some days when travelling north I stop off in the Somme. Even today 65 years on there is an eerie feeling about the countryside. To think that so many were killed there creates an appalling picture in the mind, yet despite the trenches having long been filled, there is a coldness even on a summers day.

Leo you quoted the commandment that you shall not kill. I agree with that under normal rational situations. However I don't think that when you and your family are under attack that you are expected to hold your own fire. I rather more like the do unto others what you would wish them to do to you. For that reason I will buy a poppy, yes you can buy them here, to help provide for the extras that government cannot pay for. Will I wear it? Probably not as I was brought up to believe that you shouldn't advertise the fact that you were doing a bit to help others.

It is a public holiday on Armistice Day here, and most people will take just a little time out to remember those who gave their lives. I don't really mind if a symbol is worn on a football shirt or not, but I would care deeply if the families of those who died thought that no one cared anymore.

 

Wilfred Owen's poem surely makes it absolutely clear he is totally opposed to war. The point of his title...It is a fine and noble thing etc...is clearly ironic. There is little doubt that his stance was that wars should not be fought at all. Nor have I ever understood the glorification of the Charge of the Light Brigade. Whatever you think about fighting wars, that particular action was stupidity of the highest order and the best message that can be drawn from it is that those giving the orders were not qualified to do so and the sacrifice of life was a complete waste. I have bought poppies in the past but in a way the gung-ho attitude of that poem reminds me of why I still feel uneasy about it. Young men have sacrificed their lives and I respect them for that, but how often could many of those lives been saved by better political decisions?

 

No I would not ban anyone wearing what they wanted (- within reason of course good taste etc ) if it was personal choice - the football team though are not wearing what they want - they are wearing a uniform - so it is all or none isn't it? If it were truly a free choice I suspect that 80 to 90% of people would wear a poppy for the reasons most give here - they respect and want to honour those who were injured or died. No problem with that - it is the freedom we value. I hate the institutionalisation of it

 

I think the best line in COTLB is that of
"Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldiers knew
  Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
  Rode the six hundred."

These men never questioned what their orders were, they just simply did their duty and many of them paid for that with their lives. The people who gave those orders never meant them as they were given. The order was not to charge the guns but simply prevent them from retreating.

 

This is a National Day of Rememberance, we should not be dictated to by a Foreign agency what can and cannot be worn on OUR National Day of Rememberance. Yes the England football are wearing a uniform and as such should be wearing a Poppy and wearing it with PRIDE!!!

Lest We Forget!

We shall remember them!

 

Most historians say the confusion over the order was a consequence of the long-standing personal emnity between Cardigan and Raglan. Cardigan, who survived the battle, returned to his yacht in Balaclava harbour, where he ate a champagne dinner. Says it all really...

 

BB, your point about sending people to their death while sitting back and watching, is exactly why the Poppy Appeal removed the name the Haig Fund about 10 years ago.

 

True - but they were professional soldiers who had been trained to follow orders without question. A stark contrast to WW1 where most were volunteers - and later, conscripts - comprised of clerks, farm labourers, servants, railway workers and the like, whose lives were in the hands of upper class and mainly incompetent leaders who 'led' from behind in poorly thought out campaigns. Although I suppose Churchill did learn from his mistakes and upped his game in time for the next war.

 

evening all.

imo, this whole thing smacks of political correctness gone mad. Blatter has done it out of spite i'm sure, but really, in case we offend someone we shouldn't wear poppies, shouldn't say prayers in schools, nor sing hymns...etc etc..the list goes on. But poppies aren't political. Poppies are worn to show respect, gratitude and support for all service men and women and their families who have lost their loved ones in the act of war. War stinks, we all know that...and i agree that war is bad..who wouldn't. Yes, poppy day began after World War I but it has moved on, it's not just about the first world war anymore. Those that have chosen to join the armed forces to protect us and our loved ones, deserve support on November 11 and Remembrance Sunday...because if not then...when?

 

Well great. After my horridly early start this morning, it seems i have another one tomorrow. Miss Hornette the elder has work experience starting tomorrow and apparently needs a black skirt and a black skirt...and doesn't have either! So, we're off to Tesco at 7.30am to get clothes...good grief! Another 6.30am morning, i'm sooo not used to those anymore!