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Should Novice Chases be limited in distance?

Discussion in 'Horse Racing' started by OddDog, Dec 30, 2022.

  1. OddDog

    OddDog Mild mannered janitor
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    After watching the horrible scenes in the Grade 1 Neville Hotels Novice Chase at Leopardstown yesterday I can't help thinking that asking novice chasers to run over these longer trips is to the detriment of the horse. Whether the "bumping" after the 11th fence which led to Rachael Blackmore unseating and the horrible, freak and fatal accident of Unexpected Depth was due to tiredness is hard to say. I certainly think it was due to young, inexperienced horses being well out of their comfort zone due to the strong pace and relentless jumping.

    There was some debate on here many years ago around the RSA Chase (the 3 mile novice chase at the Festival - Brown Advisory now sponsor it) being an "attritional" race - that many horses who won the race were never the same again - think back to horses such as Weapons Amnesty and Bostons Angel and more recently Topofthegame and Monkfish and it is easy to come to such a conclusion. The stress that such a championship race must put on these young horses physique seems incredible.

    Haydock's card today contains a novices limited handicap chase over an extended 3m 1f and will be run on ground described as soft, heavy in places. With only 2 runners, it is difficult to see how this race can end up as anything but a negative for the sport and once can only hope the two 6-year-olds, Crystal Glory (6 career starts to date) and Iron Bridge (5 career starts to date) get round safely. The protagonists in the longer handicap chase at 3.00 certainly have much more experience under their belts and would seem, on paper at least, physically more capable of dealing with the exertions of such a race.

    I just wonder whether novice chases should be limited to 2m 4f to protect young horses? Would that help reduce the number of novice chasers lost and also send a positive message on horse welfare? I just think it is something that could / should be looked at and would be interested in other people's views. Thanks.
     
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  2. NassauBoard

    NassauBoard Well-Known Member

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    No
     
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  3. rudebwoy

    rudebwoy Well-Known Member

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    succinct !
     
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  4. NassauBoard

    NassauBoard Well-Known Member

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    I get really grumpy about this, as with most things UK and Irish Jumps Racing.

    The sport seems to be unable to admit that horses will die because of racing, and that is something that cannot be fully solved. The sport can tweak the placement of fences, the colour of takeoff boards, and whether fences/hurdles should be jumped in certain lighting conditions. However, all of this is on a quest to solve the impossible, horses will die.

    If you reduce the distance of races you will get the jockeys riding at a faster pace to make races more of a stamina test, which will put more emphasis on jumping, and that will likely cause more falls, and potentially more fatalities. If you reduce the size of obstacles, as we have seen with the Grand National course, you will likely encourage people to take chances with horses that do not jump as well as they would need to over the old course. Falls and accidents happen, you can try and minimise them, but it is impossible to stop them.

    My view is that the sport needs to stop pandering to the animal welfare organisations and be very proud of what it is, it produces fine animals which have careers in the sport and then have the chance to have lives outside of the sport as riding horses amongst the many other pursuits the racehorse is suitable for. Yes, horses will die, and that is horrible, but the horses are in the main are having well looked after lives and post racing ones too.


    Edit - Novice Chasers have probably run over similar distances in Point to Points and Novice/Handicap Hurdles. If a horse needs a stamina test, then it should be able to be run over a stamina test.

    Similarly, I do think trainers and owners need to have a think, should we be running X over that trip, will it suit the horse and will it damage the horses career? If so, then you probably get two runner races.
     
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  5. stick

    stick Bumper King

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    Were you out fox hunting on Boxing Day?
     
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  6. stick

    stick Bumper King

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    First race at Taunton, juvenile hurdle, Trojan Horse breaks a leg. It does start to make you think.
     
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  7. OddDog

    OddDog Mild mannered janitor
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    To an extent I agree with you - especially what they have done to the Grand National. I was just wondering whether the "typical" novice chasers (let's say 6 year-olds - I know there are both younger and older chase debutants) might benefit from more experience and maturing physically before going beyond 20 furlongs? I don't know enough about horses biology to understand whether their bodies are ready for those exertions? Looking at Iron Bridge (running shortly at Haydock) he ran in a bumper and 2 novice hurdles (all at 20 furlongs) before making his chase debut over the same distance and then immediately being stepped up to 3 miles on his second chase start thus:

    upload_2022-12-30_13-53-27.png

    That sounds to me like he might not have been ready for that physical test. Let's see how he does shortly.

    I'd also look at the guidance around pulling horses up. I saw 2 horses at Leopardstown over Christmas (Andy Dufresne and Pied Piper) who were miles behind the field from a relatively early stage and should have been pulled up - both were ridden to finish the race. I read that Pied Piper was clinically abnormal after the race - not sure about Andy Dufresne - but both should have been pulled up.
     
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  8. OddDog

    OddDog Mild mannered janitor
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    Iron Bridge finished alone despite some sketchy jumping. Well done to Sean Quinlan for pulling Crystal Glory up so promptly - hopefully he is OK.
     
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  9. Ron

    Ron Well-Known Member
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    Trainers should understand the horses in their charge and, with the long term health and career of the horse in mind, run them in suitable races, only when they are ready. Also jockeys should have proper instructions regarding the riding of the horse according to how it "feels". Too many jockeys haven't a clue about what is underneath them and you will see some flogging their horse when clearly the horse has given its all

    If I may digress a little, I remember Amanda going clear in a top class show jumping event, when she quickly dismounted and walked her mount out of the ring. The judge asked what was up (because they seemed to be going so well), the vet had the horse walking up and down and saw nothing. Both front suspensory ligaments gone. If she had continued the horse would have been finished

    An example of trainers not having a clue. We bought a racehorse a few years ago. She was 5 years old. Why she had even been on a racecourse was a mystery; under developed, very immature. After a year with us she was a different horse and looked ready to race (not that we ever did race her, we got 2 lovely foals from her). How can a trainer not see that a horse is not ready for racing? Some horses develop young and some take a lot longer. For the latter, be bloody patient
     
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  10. OddDog

    OddDog Mild mannered janitor
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    Wise words Ron
     
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  11. NassauBoard

    NassauBoard Well-Known Member

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    Nope, but I also wasn’t out shouting at them either.
     
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  12. Tamerlo

    Tamerlo Well-Known Member

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    Oddy, you must know what I think about ‘protecting young horses.’
    To me, horses are over-protected and kept in cotton wool. So maybe they aren’t battle-hardened enough to withstand the rigours of the winter game.
    The question of stamina is a strange one.
    I’d like to see more staying races both on the flat and over jumps.
    Trainers seem over cautious and negative about running their horses over longer distances. I suppose breeding comes into it but there again, there are classic examples of horses which weren’t bred to stay long distances over the sticks but which made a mockery of the experts.
    Take the most gruelling test of all- the Grand National, especially fifty or sixty years ago.
    You were supposed to need an out-and-out stayer but, within four years, three horses made fools of the pundits…
    A two and a half miler, Gay Trip, hacked up in 1970, and the another one, Specify, won the following year. Two years later, another one, Crisp, should have won, if his jockey hadn’t tried to kill him by leathering him under top weight.
    As I see it, horses are there to race, not just stand in their box, waiting for Cheltenham.
    Why not run your horse fifteen times in a season, if you want, as Stalbridge Colonist did in the sixties, or carry top weight in fetlock deep going, as Arkle and Flyingbolt did.
    Nass is right. Horses will get injured and some will die.
    That’s life.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 1, 2023
  13. OddDog

    OddDog Mild mannered janitor
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    I totally agree Tam - I think Constitution Hill should run in the Betfair Hurdle next. I was just wondering whether there was a certain stage in a horse’s natural growth and development, before which it can be detrimental to the horse to ask too much from him. I suppose it relates a bit to the question of running novices in open grade 1s - most seem to err on the side of caution and wait the extra year - Coneygree being a beautiful exception.
     
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  14. Tamerlo

    Tamerlo Well-Known Member

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    Constitution Hill carry top weight in the Betfair Hurdle?
    There’s a laugh!
    Trainers don’t want to run their top horses in handicaps?
    They might lose!<laugh>
    The days of Persian War carrying top weight in the 1968 Schweppes/Betfair Hurdle are long gone. Most recent winners wouldn’t have got in the handicap of the ‘68 race.
     
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  15. OddDog

    OddDog Mild mannered janitor
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    I know - it was just that the moaning Lieutenant, complaining about the loss of the Contenders Hurdle at Sandown (in his eyes an ideal prep for the Champion Hurdle, to everyone else the archetypal egg and spoon race) and not wanting to go for the Irish Champion Hurdle. It got me thinking about where else they could go - and I hit upon the Betfair Hurdle. CH would carry 11-10 and the rest 10 stone, would be really interesting. I guess they are lining Luccia up for the race though.
     
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  16. Tamerlo

    Tamerlo Well-Known Member

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    Sod the horses! A better idea..
    Happy New Year, Oddy, to you and your family.<ok>
    PS. And to everyone else, of course
     
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  17. OddDog

    OddDog Mild mannered janitor
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    Same to you Tam <ok>
     
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