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Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v Sporting Lisbon

Discussion in 'Tottenham Hotspur' started by PleaseNotPoll, Sep 11, 2022.

  1. The RDBD

    The RDBD Well-Known Member

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    Commend Sporting CP for doing their homework.
    They blocked the flanks very well, being alert to any
    attempted fast play out that way before they had
    reset their defensive shape.

    Similarly they dared Bentancur + Hojberg to either
    attempt to carry or accurately pass the ball thru CM.
     
    #161
  2. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    Blasphemy indeed!

    I would seriously counter that though by saying if Perisic was the/ part of the reason for Son’s form this season then what’s Son’s excuse for the Southampton, Chelsea and Fulham games that Perisic didn’t start? He was considerably better against Fulham but missed a golden chance and still nowhere near the Son we know.
     
    #162
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  3. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    please log in to view this image
     
    #163
  4. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    Surely form isn’t a debatable topic here?

    Every player goes through different patches of form, some good, steady and bad. Right now Son’s in the latter. If we didn’t have three other top forwards I could understand Conte persisting with him but by dropping Kulusevski, Conte’s playing a dangerous game in which he’s persisting with a player that’s not helping the team at all at the moment whilst dropping a player who since joining has been excellent yet being dropped for no reason will play on a player’s mind and could easily result in a downturn in form for them.

    Pick the players playing well, bench the players that aren’t. That logic right there would suggest you’ll get better results than picking players that aren’t playing well.
     
    #164
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  5. Citizen Kane.

    Citizen Kane. Well-Known Member

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    If what you are saying is true (and I think it is), it makes the decision to drop Kulu all the more puzzling, as he is the only player in the squad who is a genuine threat down the right flank. Lucas does nothing, while Richarlison historically played on the left or down the middle for Everton.

    Simply putting Kulu on the pitch means teams can't afford to double up on our left flank as it leaves him the freedom of the pitch.

    I'm sorry, I think Conte is cutting off his nose to spite his face at the moment.
     
    #165
  6. KingHotspur

    KingHotspur Well-Known Member

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    Dier for me was summed up in the Marcus Edwards run, got absolutely destroyed twice.

    He’s not a top level defender, but has improved from being awful to now being average.
     
    #166
  7. Citizen Kane.

    Citizen Kane. Well-Known Member

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    According to your reasoning, Dele Alli should still be a Tottenham player and starting every match, using the more reliable indicator of historical performance?

    There is obviously a line in the sand and it is at that line that everyone agrees you start to take form very seriously as an indicator of future performance. We're just disagreeing on how early that line should be drawn.
     
    #167
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  8. Citizen Kane.

    Citizen Kane. Well-Known Member

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    You've answered your own question. Son was pretty good against Soton. Got an assist for a very smart cross in to Dier after good recovery work. He was decent against Fulham and very unlucky to score. The entire team stank at Chelsea, as is our custom, so it is difficult to pin the performance on Son exclusively.

    On average, he looks significantly worse when Perisic is playing. It only really struck me at the Marseille game where, thanks to my seat, I got a close up view of that flank for the entire first half.

    Not going to elaborate for now. Going to let you steam a bit more x
     
    #168
  9. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    Son was poor against Southampton, that assist bailed him out from any legitimate criticism.

    Awful vs Chelsea.

    He was better but still not good enough against Fulham.

    Perisic isn’t affecting his form, Son just isn’t on his game.
     
    #169
  10. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    Personally, as I've been saying for a good 203 weeks since the "Perisic and Son can't play together" Narrative started to surface, I think the real issue is Richarlison

    If you look at how we're set up with the Kane/Son/Kulusevski front three, you'll see Kane dropping deep to feed Son or Deki, although that tactic has been blunted this season with teams doubling up on Son. However, when we have a Kane/Son/Richarlison front three this doesn't happen, as Kane actually plays further forward (case in point, he was our most advanced player against Sporting) while Richarlison often winds up playing in the space left behind by Kane but more to the right instead of in the central areas Kane does so

    Now this does seem to tie in to what Conte has said in the past about wanting Kane to play as more of an out-and-out CF, but the issue is that having Kane play in a more advanced role is creating a gap between midfield and attack that means Hojbjerg and Bentancur are having to adjust their passes and play it longer than they are used to or move the ball up the pitch and close that gap themselves, and it has to be said Kane being further up the pitch also means players won't be pulled out of position. The end result is what we've been seeing a lot of lately: players either taking one touch too many in the final third or misplacing a pass to the opposition

    Not that there's an issue with tweaking tactics in order to be less predictable, after all Son getting doubled up on demonstrates the need to mix things up, but for me the issue is that once the tactics bed into players' muscle memory it will be time for the World Cup, so surely a better time to tweak the tactics would have been post-WC during the December-January slog
     
    #170
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  11. Citizen Kane.

    Citizen Kane. Well-Known Member

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    This is an excellent bit of analysis and one I hadn't considered.

    Richarlison is definitely less effective than Son and Kulu at playing off the shoulder and running the channels. He isn't nearly as quick as either of them and, as demonstrated last night, has the same understanding of the offside rule as Jermain Defoe.
     
    #171
  12. KingHotspur

    KingHotspur Well-Known Member

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    Kane’s bang out of form too. But let’s blame it on Son, Perisic and Richarlison
     
    #172
  13. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    My belief is that players randomly go through periods of random length where they play better or worse than average. Therefore what looks like 'form' is an historical outcome and doesn't predict future performance any more than past lottery numbers predict the future ones.
    If that isn't true then there will be data suggesting the opposite. I've not seen any.
     
    #173
  14. KingHotspur

    KingHotspur Well-Known Member

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    You have an articulate way of talking utter nonsense.

    You’re actually saying form doesn’t exist? <laugh>
     
    #174
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  15. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    Players both get better and deteriorate during their career so you do need to try to measure when the latter sets in and do something about it. If Son's recent performances are a true indication of an actual change in his ability then he needs to be dropped altogether and sold before he gets even worse. I reckon you need at least 40 matches to get enough data for that.
     
    #175
  16. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    No, I am saying it is not an indicator of future performance. Feel free to put up data proving the opposite. It's very simple to do. No-one has done it so it likely doesn't exist.
    As I've said before one of the most damaging human weaknesses is taking actions on patterns that don't exist.
     
    #176
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  17. KingHotspur

    KingHotspur Well-Known Member

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    You don’t need data to know several important players in the team especially Son, are out of form.

    Of course next game he could bounce back and have a wonderful game (as he’s done in the past) but you don’t need data to know he’s lucky to not be dropped yet.
     
    #177
  18. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    I think it is clear from the data that Kane is better than Son who is better than Kulesevski who is better than Richarlison. Until that changes it is ridiculous to 'drop' a player for a worse one. They all need a rest though but rotation should aim to help players to improve, not be a punishment. In my experience people respond better to carrots than sticks.
     
    #178
  19. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    Form can indicate future performance though, or at the very least certainly give a better prediction of what’s to come.

    One bad game can be brushed off, four bad consecutive games can be questioned, six to eight consecutive bad games means a player isn’t justifying a starting spot for the immediate future.

    Son has played eight and been poor in eight. Kane, Richarlison and Kulusevski have played similar amounts and not been bad in all eight, therefore they should be rewarded with starts and Son should be benched with the intention of regaining his place.

    Persisting with a poor performer sends bad signals to other players, because that says no matter how well you play or how hard you train you won’t earn a chance to start.
     
    #179
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  20. Spurlock

    Spurlock Homeboy
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    Sons biggest problem is his mentality imo

    in the past he has lashed out over what I consider petty things displaying that something has got into his head.

    His lashing out, arm waving, moan face increases as his form decreases…yeah it’s called frustration but I feel with Sonny it sinks deep and his whole personna gets affected.

    Now I feel as though he is in a sulk, rut etc due to him having quality competition in Richy…plus he’s also got Perisic occupying some of Son’s ‘territory’.

    It comes back to mentality for me

    He should embrace the challenge…instead i feel he wilts under the pressure. The type of player that when he has time, more times than not will fluff his lines…instinct and on a roll and the guy looks like a world beater. Imo, this new challenge has got under his skin…plus maybe the pressure of emulating last seasons numbers.

    If he’s getting doubled up then there's his challenge…he has to be smart with his off the ball play maybe to help him a bit etc
     
    #180
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