bonsoir again buds without a doubt prost and senna are regarded as two of the very elite group of all time great drivers , gilles villeneuve probally also would have turned out to be a true great but alas poor gilles perished before the historians could honour him as such , in my very humble opinion since alain and senna left the sport in 93/94 we have not had a trully great driver of that high calibre , and yes schumacher disciples i include micheal in that statement , as good as micheal was and i have alot of respect for him as a driver and a human being and have no doubt his statistical achievments may never be beaten , for me he had to many manufactured advantages thruout his career to be in that very, very , elite little group - not to mention he is hardly going his legacy any favours by barely matching rosberg now he has known of the manufactured advantages he once had -- to be honest alonso might be in that elite group , for me the spaniard and vettel are the most complete drivers of this current era , i personally need a couple of more seasons to trully judge alonso more accurately before i place him with the greats that i have seen , basicilly i was wondering if anybody thinks vettel will aspire to all time great status , obviously he is not there yet but for me he is starting to tick all the right boxes , the red bull is clearly very competitive but for me mclaren have been a match for it on many of the tracks this year and in my opinion it is vettel and vettel alone that is making the difference - we all know about his blinding speed but for me his intelligence is setting him apart from the rest of his era - just wondering what other people think -- are we witnessing an all time great in the making - -- to be honest i cant quite make up my mind -
Quite possibly. A lot more seasons are required first for him to be truly judged, but he has got off to a good start. Alonso serioulsy needs to win another title to be elevated to greatness. Two titles just isn't enough to be put into the elite. I wonder whether Villeueve would ever have won a title. Had terrific speed, but was prone to the odd mistake or two and mechanical sympathy was an alien concept to him 'cos he ragged the nuts off everything he drove Would he have done an Alesi and stuck with Ferrari through a romanticism he had with them, thereby curtailing any hope of being in a competitive car who the whole of a season?
Why in all seriousness would you quote the whole thread? pissing myself here Chris As for Vettel being the next great driver, it is becoming an ever closer reality.
How many titles is now considered "great". I always thought it was 3 but now these drivers are starting younger and living longer, maybe 3 isn't enough anymore and that it needs to be increased to 4+ WDC's for true greatness.
I think the number of titles is irrelevant in classifying a driver as 'great'. The 'great' drivers have that intangible quality which makes them a cut about the rest.
i must admit the historians never place gilles in that elite group so there will allways be doubts about him , he did seem to have a few accidents along the way , its what he could do in uncompetitive machinery that impressed me -- however he was probally flawed in some respects --
He was taken away too early when there was an aura around him. I can't think of anyone who knew F1 from that era who would not liked to have seen him aournd for a few years longer.
Mclaren may have been matching them on a few circuits this year, but even on most of those redbull always had the advantage. i think that before you can say that vettel could be an elite he must be in a season where there are at least two cars that are preety much equal , because this season was basically all down to the car; you any say that if vettel was in a mclaren of a ferrari then hewould have won, its just not true. right know i think that hes exactly the same as schumacher, meaning that his success is based on the car (not to say hes a bad driver, but the car has been the deciding factor) plus all the elites were excellent overtakers, i know we haven't seen much from him because hes always at the front, but still we need to see more evidence
I can't say whether or not he will be considered a great in 20 odd years but he's certainly showing the potential and has got off to a good start.
Brawn vs Red Bull 09, got 2nd over the year against Jenson who had the starting advantage and took it all the way to Brazil with having mechanical failures equal to that of 2010. Let's not forget how good Jenson is btw, he is beating Lewis and all he needed was the confidence in the car which he had when he was back leading the WDC in 09.
its very hard to say whether or not mclaren and red bull are of a very similar performance level because clearly those two teams have been the class of the field all season , as we know mclaren copied neweys blown diffuser that has given the mp4/26 such a turn of pace and the mercedes V8 would seem to be the class of the field , for me if the red bull was that far in front webber would be extracting more from it , hence why i believe in certain respects vettel is making the difference -- for me after his first WDC vettel has moved up to a new level on just about every aspect of racing , not sure about your overtaking theory , as we have seen this year when he has to do it he does with alot of class --
It's easy to look good in a car that is nicely balanced and has a downforce advantage over the opposition. In my opinion a true all-time great will look still great in a mediocre car. This is where guys like Button, Webber, Hamilton, Massa and Barrichello have fallen short. I haven't seen enough from Vettel in mediocre cars to judge him, mainly because Bourdais and Liuzzi were such rubbish drivers. When Newey designs an uncompetitive Red Bull, which he undoubtedly will, we can assess how good Vettel is. (By uncompetitive, I mean a car that is not good enough to win races and at best, should require a special performance just to finish on the podium). Out of the current drivers, it's only Alonso imo that has looked very good regardless of how strong his car is. He spent many years in mediocre cars and each of those years he did incredible things and you were left wondering how he finished in the positions he did - and it still happens - he has so many podiums this season in a car that is clearly inferior to McLaren and Red Bull. I think Alonso is getting close to establishing himself as one of the greats. That wise Autosport poll has him at number 9, but that poll was done in late 2009. Since then, he's improved a lot and I think he only needs one or two more championships to be widely regarded as one of the greats. Back to Vettel now - you say he alone is making the difference. No doubt he has improved since last year, but I also see Webber struggling a lot. If you watch Webber's onboard footage you can see that he isn't comfortable with the Pirelli tyres and as such he lacks the confidence to attack the race track like Vettel does. So Vettel might be making a little difference, but Webber is also underperforming. So yeah, overall I'm undecided on Vettel, Alonso is close to being in that elite group, and no other driver on the grid is good enough to be an all-time great
You could argue that Lewis over performed the '09 Mclaren where he managed to get two wins in it, the same amount as Barrichelo in the Brawn and Webber in the Red Bull. It could have been 4 if the pit team hadn't cocked up his pitstop in Valencia and the right rear brake problem in Abu Dhabi. Also Button probably outperformed the 2004 BAR car, getting the closest to the untouchable Ferrari's. But I agree, Vettel needs a truly good teammate to probe he is a great.
Hamilton's car in 2009 was uncompetitive for the first 9 races, where Hamilton was lacklustre and picked up a mere 10 points. After that McLaren sorted out a couple of issues and turned the MP4-24 into one of the best cars on the grid for the rest of the season. As for Button, the 2004 car was not mediocre - and all his other seasons in mediocre cars he was average - never looked deserving of a top car until he got given one in 2009.
Couldn't agree more. His consistency is telling, especially this season in a terrible car. It's a shame about his disastrous season with McLaren, I'm sure he would have won the title with them in '08 if he had still been with them. I know his move was forced, but his second spell with Renault was a complete waste of his talents. I think if Ferrari get the right car next season, Alonso will be back on top of the tree, and among the greats. As for Vettel, there is no doubting his talent but whether he is a great in the making is open to debate - he needs to be tested, and clearly this year no one has been able to get near him; and as mentioned above, getting great performances out of inferior cars is one way of recognising that. Something we haven't seen Vettel do.
I think it's far to early to tell, I also think you can only say that someone was a great driver when they have finished driving. So in another 10 years or so I think we'll be able to tell. So far it's a good start. My gut feeling is that Vettel is something special and we will see his as a great F1 driver. I guess it really depends on what cars he gets and how he handles himself from now on. Out of the other drivers on the grid, I would say that Schmacher is already a great, Alonso is well on his way, but needs a better car and Hamilton could make the jump if he gets himself sorted.
Vettel is already a 'great' driver. Statistics are only part of the story, but of course two consecutive titles - the second of which has been won in such dominant fashion - more than allude to this driver having a good claim as an all-time great. Time will tell, but he's doing a fantastic job at the moment.
I realised something after the BBC interview with Karthikeyan after the Indian GP.... In 2010 Ricciardo tested for RB in Abu Dubai at the end of the season and clocked a time a second or so quicker than Vettel managed in qualifying. Karthikeyan was 0.02s behind Ricciardo in qualifying in India having been out for an F1 car for several months and beat him in the race itself. So... Ricciardo > Vettel + Karthikeyan > Ricciardo = Karthikeyan > Vettel. Clearly Karthikeyan is a true great. Fact.
