Off Topic The SIR Kenny Dalglish Public House

[johnsonsbaby]

Yes, the lower case "c" was deliberate for that reason. Ways of thinking can be determined by the way they're expressed, and reveal an overall philosophy not necessarily linked to a political party. My leftish inclinations don't automatically make me a devotee of any party that declares itself socialist, but there are broad shared ideals.
Are religious people conservative? Most seem to be, in my experience - but I'm sure it's down to the individual and I wouldn't want to lump everyone in together in that way.
To my mind, none of this discussion has anything to do with religion and I'm mildly surprised that you see it that way.
All I will say on that topic is that if the Republican proclaimed attitude to religion influences your opinion of them in any way I'd ask you to examine it further. All this "God bless America" tripe is utter hypocrisy. American evangelical Christians hold the most un-christian value set imaginable.
Much of Trump's more vocal support came from an extreme right-wing camp of patriarchal, white-supremacist bigots who exploited so many Americans' bizarre horror of socialism to gain support for a truly appalling individual, who ironically didn't turn out quite as extreme as they'd hoped.

You said from what you've seen me write, you would suggest I was conservative. I can't think of anything that I've written lately remotely shows any political bias. I was guessing that you meant my comments in general show that leaning which is why I linked what you'd maybe seen from me with religious beliefs rather than political sympathies. None of the recent comments on here are remotely religious.

I don't actually have an opinion on the Republican or Democrat parties. I have said that they are loosely linked to our Conservative and Labour parties in their general approach but other than that I have nothing to offer.

Sometimes when a person says X is bad, the response is 'so you think Y is better'. No. 'X is bad' is a stand alone comment. Nothing else should be referred from it.

People have a deeply held hatred for Trump, Boris ... whoever... and sometimes read things into other's comments that are neither there nor inferred. I don't put you in this category btw but i know that I could say that Boris had a nice tie on today and be met with comments claiming that I loved the Tories, had voted for them all my life and thought it was great that they all had parties while the rest of the country couldn't see their Mums and Dads in care homes etc etc. Hatred is blinding. It's why I try to avoid it as much as I can. I think I'm done with anything politics related now too. It's very, very divisive.

 

[Germlands Nozzer]

You said from what you've seen me write, you would suggest I was conservative. I can't think of anything that I've written lately remotely shows any political bias. I was guessing that you meant my comments in general show that leaning which is why I linked what you'd maybe seen from me with religious beliefs rather than political sympathies. None of the recent comments on here are remotely religious.

I don't actually have an opinion on the Republican or Democrat parties. I have said that they are loosely linked to our Conservative and Labour parties in their general approach but other than that I have nothing to offer.

Sometimes when a person says X is bad, the response is 'so you think Y is better'. No. 'X is bad' is a stand alone comment. Nothing else should be referred from it.

People have a deeply held hatred for Trump, Boris ... whoever... and sometimes read things into other's comments that are neither there nor inferred. I don't put you in this category btw but i know that I could say that Boris had a nice tie on today and be met with comments claiming that I loved the Tories, had voted for them all my life and thought it was great that they all had parties while the rest of the country couldn't see their Mums and Dads in care homes etc etc. Hatred is blinding. It's why I try to avoid it as much as I can. I think I'm done with anything politics related now too. It's very, very divisive.

Just to add my two Cents (or pence): I had noticed in your posts over the last few months certain terms (e.g. the Sleepy Joe that MiTo mentioned earlier) and ideas which seemed to come more from right-wing sources and, knowing your religious beliefs, wondered if you were consuming Media that catered for right wing American Christians. Not that those were your beliefs or political leanings per se, just that you were reading or watching those sources. So maybe there was some conservative Suggestion by association rather than by any actual content to what you put.

Hope that came across the right way.

 

[Milk..]

When I see people use expressions like "Sleepy Joe" it immediately makes me think they do have a dog, and that dog is "points-scoring" against the other side. Left or right, both sides do it.

I've noticed from afar that British politics has become more like American politics over the last few decades... And part of that is the shift to it being a team sport where it's less about the actual politics and more about ones party/team getting hits on the opposition. Issues aren't discussed for the merit of the issue by the majority... People decide on the stance based upon what their party is saying.

Maybe it wasn't totally unintentional, but when I see Trump's "rival monikers" applied to politicians it immediately make me think the comment is less about the actual politics and more about point scoring because 99.99 times out of 100 that's exactly what it is. Few people say things like Sleepy Joe, or Crooked Hillary and then go on to say anything meaningful that isn't just about bashing the other team.

It's like if I refer to ****-Biscuit when talking about the United defender, you know that my motive is to laugh at United, not to really say anything profound.


My own view on Biden. He hasn't really done much extremely good or extremely bad, he's probably the most neutral president we've had- fairly average president who hasn't done anything to really rock the boat.

He is too old to be running for re election though and it will be a little irresponsible for him to run again, but I'm sure he will and if he is being challenged by Trump or a Trump-like candidate I'll probably be forced to vote for him. I feel like maintaining Democracy is far more important than any individual Presidential candidate. If I don't see the Republican candidate as a threat I'll probably go with whoever I agree with the most (which is usually a third party candidate with no hope of getting elected).

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

When I see people use expressions like "Sleepy Joe" it immediately makes me think they do have a dog, and that dog is "points-scoring" against the other side. Left or right, both sides do it.

I've noticed from afar that British politics has become more like American politics over the last few decades... And part of that is the shift to it being a team sport where it's less about the actual politics and more about ones party/team getting hits on the opposition. Issues aren't discussed for the merit of the issue by the majority... People decide on the stance based upon what their party is saying.

Maybe it wasn't totally unintentional, but when I see Trump's "rival monikers" applied to politicians it immediately make me think the comment is less about the actual politics and more about point scoring because 99.99 times out of 100 that's exactly what it is. Few people say things like Sleepy Joe, or Crooked Hillary and then go on to say anything meaningful that isn't just about bashing the other team.

It's like if I refer to ****-Biscuit when talking about the United defender, you know that my motive is to laugh at United, not to really say anything profound.


My own view on Biden. He hasn't really done much extremely good or extremely bad, he's probably the most neutral president we've had- fairly average president who hasn't done anything to really rock the boat.

He is too old to be running for re election though and it will be a little irresponsible for him to run again, but I'm sure he will and if he is being challenged by Trump or a Trump-like candidate I'll probably be forced to vote for him. I feel like maintaining Democracy is far more important than any individual Presidential candidate. If I don't see the Republican candidate as a threat I'll probably go with whoever I agree with the most (which is usually a third party candidate with no hope of getting elected).

A dog??

Anyway the main difference between the populist liars here and those in the states seems to be the rampant money there, its just a bit less gauche here.

 

[Solid Air]

A dog??

Anyway the main difference between the populist liars here and those in the states seems to be the rampant money there, its just a bit less gauche here.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

Just to add my two Cents (or pence): I had noticed in your posts over the last few months certain terms (e.g. the Sleepy Joe that MiTo mentioned earlier) and ideas which seemed to come more from right-wing sources and, knowing your religious beliefs, wondered if you were consuming Media that catered for right wing American Christians. Not that those were your beliefs or political leanings per se, just that you were reading or watching those sources. So maybe there was some conservative Suggestion by association rather than by any actual content to what you put.

Hope that came across the right way.

It did come across the right way. Can you enlarge on the "certain terms"? Other than Sleepy Joe which I probably picked up from that meme channel. I'm not sure what you mean. Btw I'm not watching YouTube constantly for political ideas or whatever else you think I'm doing. Right wing American Christians videos is that a thing other than Christians anywhere being more conservative as Saint has suggested?

I watch YouTube mainly when I need help with diy, like how to mend a dripping radiator without turning the water off. (Got a great tip for that using specially made ice spray to freeze the water temporarily in the pipe). I watch music videos, football videos and occasionally something will pop up in my recommendations based on absolutely nothing I've ever viewed before like Thomas Sowell. I watched a couple of videos from the Senate hearings which is probably why the Biden gaffes meme channel came into my recommendeds. And that's probably it.

I have a very strong sense of who I am and I'm not easily influenced. I'm a practising Catholic so you could say I was indoctrinated into that, all children of parents of faith are but unless as an adult you are able to make your own decisions and actively choose it, it can mean very little in your life. Of my two sons, one has chosen to stay connected to the church and is a better Catholic than me and one has rejected it. That's life.

I think people are reading more into the very little I've said about Biden and Trump, than is actually there. I'm baffled by some of the things being put to me. Like I said, about nobody in particular, just because I said X is bad doesn't mean I think Y is good. I'm actually getting a vibe of keep your opinions to yourself on this one.

I'm going to read back on this thread now to see what I could possibly have said to elicit some of the comments I've got back

 

[Milk..]

A dog??

Anyway the main difference between the populist liars here and those in the states seems to be the rampant money there, its just a bit less gauche here.

"A dog in the fight". Money is involved in anything political here... Either side of the political spectrum. You need to be already wealthy before you can even run, even for a smallish office. If you're not a lawyer, heir, doctor, or successful entrepreneur, you probably won't have the funds to run for office.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

You must log in or register to see media

 

[johnsonsbaby]

When I see people use expressions like "Sleepy Joe" it immediately makes me think they do have a dog, and that dog is "points-scoring" against the other side. Left or right, both sides do it.

I've noticed from afar that British politics has become more like American politics over the last few decades... And part of that is the shift to it being a team sport where it's less about the actual politics and more about ones party/team getting hits on the opposition. Issues aren't discussed for the merit of the issue by the majority... People decide on the stance based upon what their party is saying.

Maybe it wasn't totally unintentional, but when I see Trump's "rival monikers" applied to politicians it immediately make me think the comment is less about the actual politics and more about point scoring because 99.99 times out of 100 that's exactly what it is. Few people say things like Sleepy Joe, or Crooked Hillary and then go on to say anything meaningful that isn't just about bashing the other team.

It's like if I refer to ****-Biscuit when talking about the United defender, you know that my motive is to laugh at United, not to really say anything profound.


My own view on Biden. He hasn't really done much extremely good or extremely bad, he's probably the most neutral president we've had- fairly average president who hasn't done anything to really rock the boat.

He is too old to be running for re election though and it will be a little irresponsible for him to run again, but I'm sure he will and if he is being challenged by Trump or a Trump-like candidate I'll probably be forced to vote for him. I feel like maintaining Democracy is far more important than any individual Presidential candidate. If I don't see the Republican candidate as a threat I'll probably go with whoever I agree with the most (which is usually a third party candidate with no hope of getting elected).

Sorry, I can't keep defending myself against assertions that simply aren't true, no matter how much you want them to be true. You've come at me three times now with the same accusation.

I'm taking my real dog for a quick walk.

 

[Milk..]

Right wing American Christians videos is that a thing other than Christians anywhere being more conservative as Saint has suggested?

I think Christians do average more conservative, certainly true in the US... Certainly not all are right wing though. Faith is very important to many black families in the US, I don't have hard data at the moment to back this, but I'd say they are much more religious as a group than most whites. Blacks tend to be to the left of other American races.

You mentioned yourself being Catholic. I'd guess (again no data to back it up) that Catholics as a whole are more left leaning too... Part of that because they are mostly located in the leftist North East, and partly as a reaction to the antagonism of Christians in the South and West who tend to be rightist, and don't consider Catholics to be Christian... (My wife was brought up thinking Catholicism was a polytheistic religion... She knows better now of course, but that's what she was taught in church ).

 

[Milk..]

Sorry, I can't keep defending myself against assertions that simply aren't true, no matter how much you want them to be true. You've come at me three times now with the same accusation.

I'm taking my real dog for a quick walk.

That last comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Just clarifying to the room in general after the last page of discussion about it. The initial comment was tongue in cheek because I thought it funny to say "no dog in the fight" after the loaded expression. I personally don't care where your politics lay. I myself, am probably to the right of many members of this forum on a number of issues. (Although also to the left on others... I don't really agree with any party all that much UK or US parties... There's enough about Republicans, Democrats, Conservate, Labour, and Lib Dems for me to want to distance myself from them all).

 

[saintanton]

I think Christians do average more conservative, certainly true in the US... Certainly not all are right wing though. Faith is very important to many black families in the US, I don't have hard data at the moment to back this, but I'd say they are much more religious as a group than most whites. Blacks tend to be to the left of other American races.

You mentioned yourself being Catholic. I'd guess (again no data to back it up) that Catholics as a whole are more left leaning too... Part of that because they are mostly located in the leftist North East, and partly as a reaction to the antagonism of Christians in the South and West who tend to be rightist, and don't consider Catholics to be Christian... (My wife was brought up thinking Catholicism was a polytheistic religion... She knows better now of course, but that's what she was taught in church ).

I had a discussion (I suppose that's the term) on social media with an American evangelist who maintained that Catholics aren't Christian. I was honestly astonished that anyone could be that ignorant of history.
I tried to explain to him how the Roman church was the standard-bearer for Christianity for 1500 years before his particular sect existed, but it was hopeless.
How do people over there manage to bring up kids in such intellectual isolation?

 

[saintanton]

It did come across the right way. Can you enlarge on the "certain terms"? Other than Sleepy Joe which I probably picked up from that meme channel. I'm not sure what you mean. Btw I'm not watching YouTube constantly for political ideas or whatever else you think I'm doing. Right wing American Christians videos is that a thing other than Christians anywhere being more conservative as Saint has suggested?

I watch YouTube mainly when I need help with diy, like how to mend a dripping radiator without turning the water off. (Got a great tip for that using specially made ice spray to freeze the water temporarily in the pipe). I watch music videos, football videos and occasionally something will pop up in my recommendations based on absolutely nothing I've ever viewed before like Thomas Sowell. I watched a couple of videos from the Senate hearings which is probably why the Biden gaffes meme channel came into my recommendeds. And that's probably it.

I have a very strong sense of who I am and I'm not easily influenced. I'm a practising Catholic so you could say I was indoctrinated into that, all children of parents of faith are but unless as an adult you are able to make your own decisions and actively choose it, it can mean very little in your life. Of my two sons, one has chosen to stay connected to the church and is a better Catholic than me and one has rejected it. That's life.

I think people are reading more into the very little I've said about Biden and Trump, than is actually there. I'm baffled by some of the things being put to me. Like I said, about nobody in particular, just because I said X is bad doesn't mean I think Y is good. I'm actually getting a vibe of keep your opinions to yourself on this one.

I'm going to read back on this thread now to see what I could possibly have said to elicit some of the comments I've got back

Ok JB, I'll explain my point of view. You come across as an honest and sincere bloke and I respect you for that. I don't share your religious beliefs, but that's ok - there are many conflicting religions around the world and I don't go for any of them.
I never gratuitously attack people on here outside of a bit of banter, so I hope you don't see an honest exchange of differing views as an ad hominem. If I say you come across as conservative to me it's because that is the impression given, even though it may not seem like that to you.
I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve when it comes to social issues, I make no pretence of neutrality but neither do I try to proselytise - I simply put forward my argument.
Neither Trump nor Johnson are remotely qualified to be political leaders, and this inappropriateness is more offensive to me than their personal traits. I sincerely resent the fact that Boris represents my interests on the world stage as he is so thoroughly inept. Trump's arrogance and volatile nature were a threat to any sort of stability. Because Putin is a lunatic doesn't mean it's a good idea to face up to him with another lunatic.

As for the right-wing American Christian thing - they're definitely a breed apart. If you haven't seen any of their output, indulge yourself. It's an eye-opener. They make you look like Marx and Engels rolled into one.

 

[Milk..]

I had a discussion (I suppose that's the term) on social media with an American evangelist who maintained that Catholics aren't Christian. I was honestly astonished that anyone could be that ignorant of history.
I tried to explain to him how the Roman church was the standard-bearer for Christianity for 1500 years before his particular sect existed, but it was hopeless.
How do people over there manage to bring up kids in such intellectual isolation?

I'm not a religious person, but the number of times I've had to defend Catholicism as a legitimate Christian religion over here is quite astounding. Even my wife, for example, when we first met, refused to even acknowledge Catholics as even monotheistic because "they pray to Mary and other Saints"...

It wasn't out of hatred, it was out of going to a Baptist church twice a week throughout her childhood. (shes neither baptist, nor evenreligious now... Neither my doing... But she does acknowledge Catholics as christians now)

It's not lack of education, it's what they've been mistaught. It's what American protestant churches mainly believe.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

You like gauche?

An American walks into the white House pushing a wheel barrow of cash


A brit walks into no 10 while his mates wallets bulges with contracts.

We even have ours dress up as a tramp who got dragged through a street sweeper to pretend we are not in it for the cash.

 

[saintanton]

I'm not a religious person, but the number of times I've had to defend Catholicism as a legitimate Christian religion over here is quite astounding. Even my wife, for example, when we first met, refused to even acknowledge Catholics as even monotheistic because "they pray to Mary and other Saints"...

It wasn't out of hatred, it was out of going to a Baptist church twice a week throughout her childhood. (shes neither baptist, nor evenreligious now... Neither my doing... But she does acknowledge Catholics as christians now)

It's not lack of education, it's what they've been mistaught. It's what American protestant churches mainly believe.

I realise that, I just don't get how they can isolate them from other sources that would disabuse them of that notion. Even a passing knowledge of history would surely educate them about the Reformation?
Surely their elders know their history, so they should understand that what they're peddling is a downright lie.

 

[Germlands Nozzer]

It did come across the right way. Can you enlarge on the "certain terms"? Other than Sleepy Joe which I probably picked up from that meme channel. I'm not sure what you mean. Btw I'm not watching YouTube constantly for political ideas or whatever else you think I'm doing. Right wing American Christians videos is that a thing other than Christians anywhere being more conservative as Saint has suggested?

I watch YouTube mainly when I need help with diy, like how to mend a dripping radiator without turning the water off. (Got a great tip for that using specially made ice spray to freeze the water temporarily in the pipe). I watch music videos, football videos and occasionally something will pop up in my recommendations based on absolutely nothing I've ever viewed before like Thomas Sowell. I watched a couple of videos from the Senate hearings which is probably why the Biden gaffes meme channel came into my recommendeds. And that's probably it.

I have a very strong sense of who I am and I'm not easily influenced. I'm a practising Catholic so you could say I was indoctrinated into that, all children of parents of faith are but unless as an adult you are able to make your own decisions and actively choose it, it can mean very little in your life. Of my two sons, one has chosen to stay connected to the church and is a better Catholic than me and one has rejected it. That's life.

I think people are reading more into the very little I've said about Biden and Trump, than is actually there. I'm baffled by some of the things being put to me. Like I said, about nobody in particular, just because I said X is bad doesn't mean I think Y is good. I'm actually getting a vibe of keep your opinions to yourself on this one.

I'm going to read back on this thread now to see what I could possibly have said to elicit some of the comments I've got back

I guess examples would be good unfortunately though I don't have any to hand I'm afraid - I'm not Astro and don't bookmark everything If any spring to mind I can let you know.

And as I said, it wasn't so much that I thought you had those views, just that I wondered if you were consuming such Media (which didn't just mean YouTube, but also newspapers, TV, Facebook, WhatsApp etc.). As a practicing Christian, I guess I'm a bit sensitive to it from seeing arguments made by Christians on political things where it seems to me at least that their thinking has been influenced by political forces so that their arguments don't agree with my understanding (e.g. why do I need a covid vaccine when I've got a God-given immune system?).

For what it's worth, on the whole I consider myself pretty centrist, but I probably lean more to the left than to the right, and seem to be getting more left wing as I get older. As to whether religious people (and so far in this discussion we tend to mean Christian) are more likely to be conservative, I think it can go in both directions. Some may focus on loving thy neighbour and taking care of the poor and be quite left wing; certainly quite a few churches and Christians I know of in England and Germany have strong focusses on social justice and Environmental issues/looking after God's creation. Others may focus on other aspects and be more right wing. Certainly the evangelical right in the USA is very loud and powerful politically and helps drive conversations around abortion, gay rights etc. Others may call themselves Christian out of Tradition rather than real belief and just generally be more conservative (e.g. to use a Stereotype, "Little Englanders"), so there would be a correlation there but the causation would be more cultural than religious.

Finally, I hope you dont think any posts here have been attacking you personally, because I haven't understood them that way and I don't think they were meant to be; certainly mine weren't. And I hope you continue to feel free to express your opinion.

 

[Milk..]

Anyhow speaking of Trump and his MAGA brigade.

This is an actual political ad that aired in the US. Yes, we've had some mass shootings lately. Yes a Republican Senator did recently receive a death threat to behead him, his wife and his five year old because he was in favour of prosecuting Truml... But this was seen as a legitimate ad somehow by a leading candidate.

You must log in or register to see media

 

[Germlands Nozzer]

I realise that, I just don't get how they can isolate them from other sources that would disabuse them of that notion. Even a passing knowledge of history would surely educate them about the Reformation?
Surely their elders know their history, so they should understand that what they're peddling is a downright lie.

True, but the whole point of the Reformation (religiously and leaving aside the political aspects) was that the Church had become too far removed from its roots and placed it's own authority above Scripture. Based on that, it's easy to make an argument that they're not "real" Christians (not that I would agree with that).

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

True, but the whole point of the Reformation (religiously and leaving aside the political aspects) was that the Church had become too far removed from its roots and placed it's own authority above Scripture. Based on that, it's easy to make an argument that they're not "real" Christians (not that I would agree with that).

Would now be a good time to throw in transubstantiation? Or perhaps antidisestablishmentarianism?