The club have published an interesting article about the life of an Academy player by Oliver Monguel. In it young Olly explains that the under 18s preparation reflects the approach of the senior squad and the differences he has seen under Woy, Hughes and Jol - "Under Roy Hodgson we did a lot of shape and defensive work, whilst when Mark Hughes was in charge there was an emphasis on getting players forward more. Now with Martin Jol I would say it is more technical, as he likes his players to be good on the ball. The attacking emphasis is still there though, there’s a mix of both, which perhaps comes from his Dutch influence." A good summary of how, I guess, most fans perceive the relative philosophy of each. Wonder why 'the Jol way' is working for the juniors and not the seniors. It couldn't have something to do with Kit Symons, could it? You can read Olly's full interview here - http://http://www.fulhamfc.com/Club/News/NewsArticles/2011/October/AcademyScholar.aspx#ixzz1bvAm8kTh
It is precisely this philosophy of jol's which is why I'm happy to be more patient with him than others. While I often disagree with his post match interviews and some of his substitutions, I would happily take a mediocre season of lower mid-table and put it down as being transitional if it means were gonna play more attractive football and consequently get better results in the long term.
What he said. It's possible I'm missing Cottager's point but it seems very harsh to call for Kit Symons to be elevated above Jol on the basis that he is effective at making Jol's way work with the youngsters. It's Jol's way that we're talking about, after all - it might not be Symons' way if he was allowed to be his own man.
Point taken Captain - I should have been more transparent. What I was alluding to was the relative effectiveness of communicating the 'vision' between Symons and Jol. Watching games, I've often felt that Jol knows, in his mind, what he wants the players to do but the end result has not been delivered. Take for example, his pairing of Senderos with Hangeland and putting Hughes at right back - the 'vision' being that Riise could romp upfield and the other 3 would slide over as a 3 CB formation. It didn't work even against lesser European opposition. Another is that he says he wants wide wing backs to stretch the opposition when instead we end up falling over each other in the middle of the park. There are more. Now it might be the player’s lack of discipline or ability to adapt to a different role but we have been so disjointed in too many games that it has to raise a question about Jol's ability to get his message over. And that brings me back to my current hobby horse about the work he does with the senior squad on the training ground. With the Academy Kit Symons, if results have anything to go by, seems more effective at applying the vision and that must be down to the work done during the week. Also, there is Jol's apparent reluctance to change things during a game if all is not going to plan. I've mentioned before the guy who sits 2 seats along from me who commented, "what is we can see that the manager can't?". Well he's been saying it more often recently. At times Jol indeed seems to have a mental block or an assumption that if he wants it to happen, it must be happening. So, I'm certainly not suggesting Kit be promoted, rather I was attempting to highlight that there is nothing wrong with 'Jol's way' but that the 'master' has to do better to educate and pass on his knowledge to the 'pupils'.
Very fair point cottager, I think whats more disappointing is Jol has signed a number of players who style of play should be suited to this new tactical approach, with ruiz and kasami coming to mind in addition to dembele and dempsey who we already have to play in this manner. As fans we all want a manager's new tactics to bear fruit straight away but patience is essential. If nothing has changed by the new year, then maybe there is more of a deeper lying problem.
I have watched so many training sessions at Motspur Park probably more than Jol and certainly Hughes put together, although I am no tactician,the enthusiasm that KS shows is incredible,i know the written article stated that KS has adapted his style to each new manager,but you can see the majority of his play is the same now as it was 2/yrs ago. and his results over the past couple of years speak for themselves,my worry is if Jol is pushed out over the next month or so, we will find ourselves pleading with some( failed has, or never was, ) taking over the helm and with it relegation.
Robes If we are in the bottom 3 at Christmas, I would say that Jols tactics have failed,we have got more talent in our team than at least 6 or 8 other Premiership clubs,so if we find ourselves propping up the table in the new year FAILURE. I know many will say "ah Hughes was bottom at Christmas but does this mean to be a Fulham fan under any manager we should year in year out be in this position.
It's a very good point, with the squad we have we shouldn't be lower than 12th/13th, but if we are bottom at christmas it may be more than just Jol's tactics. It would be the failed product of a group of talented but underperforming players. Perhaps they would need to held to account to a greater extent for their below par performances. You're right that we shouldn't have to be in this position year in year out, but bear in mind both Hughes and Jol have been new managers the last 2 seasons, both who've taken time to adapt their style towards the team. In this sense, then perhaps KS would be the logical choice to take over, as he already knows the club inside out. But that is still a huge risk, just ask any Blackburn fan what they think of the appointment of Steve Kean last season. If we were to sack our experienced manager now for to put it bluntly a rookie then I fear we could go in a similar direction.
No, but it does mean we should be wise enough to know that changing manager every year is a good way to get relegated. I'm really surprised and disappointed at the 3 or 4 Fulham fans here, who 9 games into his first season want our manager sacked. Bizarre.
I personally have not asked for his head yet,but if we are bottom at Christmas,it surely must mean his tactics have not worked,or his motivational skills are questionable.
I for one don't want him sacked, Tosh. I want him to get his finger out. He has had 21 games, not 9, and still doesn't seem to know his best 11. Just to keep the numbers going, 1 goal away from home in the premiership, while pathetic, only tells part of the story. Take away the 'blip' of QPR and 4 at home says even more. A number of posts have made the point - "it's not so much that we lost, it's the way we lost". I'm sorry, but his bland post match excuses are wearing very thin -"we have most of the posession", "we had 2 good chances" {NB they were the only 2 in 90 minutes and only 1 was on target} bla, bla, bla. The real story is, and this has been visible since the very first of those 21, that we don't show urgency in our play and don't put pressure on the opposition (anywhere on the field). When I say he doen't know his best 11, what I mean is that he doesn't select his teams tactically to match the team we're playing against. Take the Stoke game. Everyone knows their style and especially their home reputation, so, if he went there for 0-0 (as he said) why play the same players in a 4-4-2 formation as he did against QPR. It's naive to expect the game to play out the same. I could go on but will leave it by repeating that I believe it would be wrong to sack him now but he must begin to demonstrate that he, as well as the Dutch (you may recall his comments about Ruiz posted in another thread) understands the premiership. He can start by dropping some of the bigger names, like Riise, until they are fit and ready to play for the club.
Cottager 58 You have raised some good points,and regardless of what has been said by others,we are in a bit of a mess,and if allowed to continue,the week in week out fans, will be next season watching championship football at the cottage.
Fair points all around. I see two failings in the current squad. Team positioned around Murphy, although he is the best midfielder by stats in the PL, for passing goal scoring opportunities he is the only one we have! Too many times he has been left exposed after mistakes he has made. We are playing a short of 4-4-2 formation that becomes 4-2-4 when attacking with Dempsey and Dembele and we can't defend. Sidwell and Murphy can't hold on their own. Lack of width. Davies injury has flicked more pain than we thought. We both of them on the sides we could open up team. Now as many people said we are playing too much in the middle and we can't open us the defenses. I read the analysis of Man City and Man Utd team formations. Man City's midfielders were running across all positions confusing the defense. That's something I saw in our first european games. Then suddenly we stopped it. The opposite defense looked lost and committed too many fouls. It's the only way to open up the defense if we are not attacking from the sides. All this might be pointless if we get a couple of good results!!!
Cottager, if you're right about Symons' ability to get Jol's vision across, maybe it's worth promoting him to work under Jol with the first team squad?
