One big difference is that Man Utd can still spend more than Spurs so have a better chance of improving the squad.
Sounds to me like you’ve settled for that as a reason to never achieve A subconscious excuse to feel better for us being almost rans always
I think it’s very tough to differentiate ability and mentality of world class players. Because if as stated Kane did go City and let’s say he hit 30 goals including in Manchester Derbies and against Pool whilst winning the league, how do we then say that he doesn’t have the mentality of a world class player but only the ability? I’d also disagree on the number crunching of big games he has or hasn’t gone missing. The problem for him is that the finals he’s not scored in seemingly overshadow the performances he’s put in in NLDs, London Derbies, European games or even like the other week against City. I don’t think it’s a mentality thing with Kane from an individual standpoint, I think our whole team tends to struggle with the big occasion but with Kane being the team’s striker, if he doesn’t get fed the ball in these games there’s not much he can do. He did score in the FA Cup semi final defeat to Chelsea about 5 years back and if truth be told, I don’t seemingly remember him having many other chances in the other semis/ finals that he could have buried. I’m not saying it’s completely as simple as this but if a striker gets no service he can’t score goals and Kane’s been severely starved in the games it’s really mattered. Our managers have generally done very well getting the best out of the two of them, the problem is that barring some of the years under Poch, we didn’t have the squad to match them. Messi and Ronaldo have stolen many, many headlines over the years but they weren’t playing in weak teams, they’ve had the likes of Xaxi, Iniesta, Neymar, Suarez, Alves, Rooney, Scholes, Giggs, Modric, Benzema, Ozil, Kroos amongst many other world class players to all play alongside over the years which has massively allowed them to excel to levels we likely will never see again. Lewandowski is playing alongside the best players in the Bundesliga. Aguero played alongside the best players in the Prem. Most of these players wouldn’t have won half of what they’d won if they didn’t play alongside many other world class players and that’s where it’s generally gone wrong for Spurs over the years, not just Kane and Son but it’s why Bale, Modric, van der Vaart etc won nothing here either, we had good/ great players but not enough ones on their level and so (in Bale and Modric’s case) they had to leave to get to play with those very players and win the trophies their ability deserved. I think we have two killers at Spurs, or certainly one in Kane but to be a truly top side capable of winning big things, you need at the very least 6 of them in your starting XI. Some to kill goals, some to kill assists and others to kill opposition attacks… we unfortunately just don’t - and generally haven’t - had that, hence why we’re often the bridesmaids and never the bride.
Not realised that we are spending more than we ever have but are the worst we have been for 30 years. It's not what you spend it's who you buy that counts, Liverpool are a great example of this () by the fact they buy players to fit the squad/team and mostly get it right.
Totally agree. Of course money helps - a lot. But if you spend it on magic beans it won't matter. United are a prime example of this, as are Chelsea tbh whose £750m match day squad hasn't been in the title race since mid September.
I agree they need better quality team mates and I agree there are limited ways to do that correctly. You seem confident the owners spend as much as possible on the playing side of things, I don’t buy into that. But anyway back to the matter at hand, What about the Boro game or Burnley or Southampton and that’s just from the last month? Kane and Son were anonymous. Kane is a great player and Son is a very good player but when the chips are down and you need a moment of brilliance they don't step and the others certainly don’t but that’s because they’re not good enough to. Last season Spurs had Bale who chipped in when Son and Kane had off games and that was the only reason the club qualified for Europe.
As disappointing as this season is at least we've been entertained at times... something that was almost non existent from Dec 2019 -Dec 2021 bar the Everton FA Cup game! We are attacking more, creating more and scoring more so the football is clearly better and improving. Hopefully we'll get rid of unwanted players on a permanent basis and not lose any key players (unlikely but you never know) and get some better players in. It's a serious rebuilding job so ain't optimistic that conte will stay beyond this season but at least watching us might remain entertaining...RCL advice...enjoy the little things and have no hopes of big things!
It sounds like we disagree on the definition of a 'crunch game' too. Of course, NLDs and other derbies are well and good and it's always great to have bragging rights, but unless the consequence of that victory is more than bragging rights, it is difficult to call it a 'crunch' game. Europe is exactly the same story. True, there have been plenty of excellent performances but I argue again - the disappearing acts outnumber them. Most tellingly is how we overcame City away without Kane in the QF and Ajax without Kane and Son in one leg and without Kane in the away leg. They clearly haven't been the be all and end all of our European adventures, and IIRC Kane played 120mins in that farce against Dinamo Zagreb and was as bad as anyone. What I'm looking for in mentality is exactly what Ronaldo did tonight for United. Team's back are against the wall, crucial game against an immediate rival, lose and top 4 is basically gone which is disastrous for a club of that size. So Ronaldo just says 'to hell with it, I'll do it myself'. I don't think you need 6 of those players in every team. United have one. City have three, maybe four. Chelsea have two or three. Liverpool have three or four. We have none. I just go back in my mind's eye to so many games. So so many games. So many nearly moments. The loss in 2015/16 to West Ham when we could've gone top. The draw to 10-man Arsenal the following week when we could've gone top. The draw against West Brom and the 'Battle of the Bridge' that showed more than anything we had no idea how to handle pressure. Then in 2016/17, our league form was magnificent but the nearly moments came in the cups. Disastrous CL campaign. Pathetic loss to Gent in the EL. Loss to Chelsea in the SF. Then in 2017/18, loss to a poor United team in the SF. Collapse against Juve in the CL. Then that run of games in 2018/19 where he returned from injury and we lost to Burnley, Chelsea, Southampton and Liverpool and drew to Arsenal and the title was once again gone. And a team without Kane or Son somehow fought tooth and nail to take Chelsea to penalties in the Carabao SF. And last season, the chances to take top 4 by beating Leeds and then again by beating Villa. Didn't happen. Another invisible final. The Zagreb debacle. It's a depressing read when laid out in full historical glory. And I acknowledge there were numerous other factors at play every step of the way. But there have not been enough 'to hell with this, I'll do it myself' moments from Son or Kane. Not when it really mattered.
What Ronaldo done to us today is what Kane done to City a few weeks back though. So we do have one. It’s easier to point out the bad games for great players because the good ones become an expectancy to the point where it feels “normal” and so when something isn’t normal it’ll standout. Case in point Ronaldo played the full 90 in the 5-0 and 2-0 losses to Liverpool and City respectively. Funnily enough, Ronaldo at Utd is now ironically exactly where Kane is and has been with Spurs - the standout superstar but not surrounded by enough quality to match his ambition and level. Unless Utd grab an unlikely CL win, they’ll finish between 4th-6th and trophyless, will that be Ronaldo’s fault for failing to turn up enough? Course not, it’s the fact he can’t do it all on his own, no one can. There are plenty of games the very best players don’t turn up in over their careers though, the difference for many of them to Kane is that they’ve often had someone else capable of doing so for them. If Kane doesn’t turn up for Spurs, especially in a big game, then there’s probably about a 10% chance we win a game through someone else’s heroics. When the top players of City, Bayern, Madrid and co don’t turn up in one of their games, there’s often someone else who will. Case in point with Ronaldo himself, in 17/18 when Madrid won the Champions League, he didn’t score or assist in either of semi final legs or the final, same for the second leg of the semi final (missed the first) or final in the 15/16 CL win for Madrid too, yet how many people will generally bring that up? No one, why? Because they still won as they had a bunch of other world class players that stepped up instead and that’s why I think you definitely need around 5-6 Kane’s in your team to be truly successful, we have just the one and when he doesn’t turn up he’s seemingly berated for it, whilst the substandard other players we have slide under the radar - they’re often the problems, not Kane (or Son). If we want to be a top side, we need to add more “Kane’s” not consider him a problem.
Early in the game Pogba and Dier committed similar fouls.Dier was booked and so had a restraint put on him by Moss. Pogba was not and allowed another ‘free hit’ . He took that later in the game when he committed a deliberate dangerous foul on Kane. If he had received a deserved. caution earlier would he have committed that foul or would he have have got away with i. Knowing Moss ass we all do it would probably have been the latter, These are the decisions as much as the award of penalties for blatant dives that give credence to the belief in the ‘team in red’ opinions of fans of many other clubs
You could argue they should have had a penalty for the handball by Dier which wasn’t a lot different to the one given to Spurs later in the game though.
Dier was much closer to the to the ball. The distance the ball travels is an important factor in deciding. I certainly wouldn’t argue they should have had a penalty for it, I would argue that there was a foul by a player in red that was missed by Moss in the lead up to that incident.
Not at all. I want us to win things as much as anyone. But to do that regularly we need to be in the top two or three clubs by income. That’s pretty much always been true.
I agree with a lot of what both yourself and Citizen Kane are saying, elements of both arguments can be true at the same time. Kane is not the biggest problem that we have, however I disagree that Ronaldo in this match, and Kane in the City match are the same. They are not size. What Conte says about Ronaldo post this match says it all. This cooing over Kane because he's a golden boy for England is getting old. Didn't enjoy it after the City game either. All this, can Spurs match Kane's ambition bollocks, is tiring also. Match your own damn ambition, on the flipping' pitch when you have the chances. Not saying the team doesn't need improving, but what Citizen Kane says about solo performances in comparison to Bale holds up. They are not size. If Kane were as clinical and determined in the Man City game as Ronaldo was yesterday, Spurs would have won the match 5-2 or maybe even 6-2. Ronaldo has a killer instinct that both Son and Kane too often lack. If they had it, there is no way we lose yesterdays match with all of the chances created. They are often too nice. Look at how Ronaldo snarled and almost growled when he scored, like an animal. The closest I saw to that from a Spurs player was Romero, when Maguire scored the own goal, a healthy distain for the opposition. Drogba had it in spades when he'd score against us. They genuinely want to punish and hurt the opposition, not just score to get the stats up or make pretty football. Absolute non acceptance of anything but a win, a desire to dominate and almost humiliate the opposition. 'How dare they even think they can beat us?' Son and this falling over s(*&t, Kane looking for penalties and free kicks, whining like school kids to the referee, when they should be more focussed on burying the damn chances, clinically. Like assassins. No mistakes. Cold. Just hit the damn target. Both of them celebrating being the top scoring duo in the PL like good mates, making pretty videos, smiling away, when they should be toughening themselves, up, (taking turns to kick each other in the nuts? I don't know! ) and getting ready to bay for Manchester blood. Ironically, a memorable moment of this instinct in action was when Dembele thumbed out the eye of one the Chelseas boys. Maybe they need to watch Denzel in the Equaliser, or some John Wick. (Another related question. Why are Spurs so s&*(t at free kicks? This goes for the whole team, but especially Son and Kane. This is another department of non-comparison between the two and Bale/Ronaldo. No fear factor when we get free kicks.)
Why are they not the same? Kane destroyed City, Ronaldo destroyed us, destroying us is far easier than destroying City too. Why does one player get rightly praised for his excellent performance and the other gets pushed to the side. Kane is obviously not as good as Ronaldo but the idea he’s not a superstar or a world class player is beyond nonsense because his stats say, wait, prove otherwise. What chances yesterday did Kane actually miss? I’m struggling to think. He put away the penalty and as far as I can recall that was his only clear shot on goal. We controlled a lot of the game but we didn’t actually create tons of chances, neither did Utd but there were three chances for Ronaldo and he buried them, there wasn’t a similar amount of chances for Kane to bury. What chances has Kane also missed in finals to make you think he needs to take them in order for us to match his ambitions? I don’t remember a single final where Kane has fluffed a golden opportunity and that’s because he’s generally had zero service. If a striker don’t get the ball they’ll rarely score. Bale had one truly elite season at Spurs and that was his final one, there was even a period where he was being linked with a move to the championship. Kane has had seven. So if you’re going by how many elite performances the players have had at Spurs, Kane blows Bale out of the water, by a distance too. And here’s the typical English mindset - “cooing over Kane is getting old”… why? Does Portugal not worship Ronaldo? Does Brazil not worship Neymar? Is Lewandowski not revered in Poland? Why do English fans and media have so much trouble appreciating their own players? It was exactly the same with Rooney and Beckham beforehand, people loved finding faults and issues with them, whether it was the odd bad performance or issues in their personal lives, rather than cherish the many positives they brought to the sport. Great (and very funny) of Romero to snarl at Maguire’s OG but if he and Doherty dealt with Sancho’s run down the left wing and stop the cross then Ronaldo doesn’t score Utd’s second goal. So it looks like even being a **** and not a nice guy doesn’t always work. Great of Dembele to claw Costa’s too, that got him a six game ban and we still drew that game, the very game Kane and Son scored in. We’re **** at freekicks because we don’t have a genuine freekick taker. It’s a specialist piece of play, one that James Ward-Prowse is probably the best at in Europe right now. Kane, Son, Dier and others have tried, none of them are right for it. Trippier and Eriksen were the last two players we had that could take them.
I agree with pretty much all of what DH has said. The shame in this game is that we actually played well in the first half and the first half of the second half until we couldn't pass a ball or connect with it in the latter stages of the game. As I said at half time, United played similar tactics to our best form, when the other team has most of the ball and we catch them on the break. I think Conte has managed to install slightly more determination in the team but it's not a finished job by some way.
Why are they not the same? For starters, Ronaldo scored a three goals to Kane's two. Does that difference not count? Kane deserves praise for his performance, I am full of praise where it is due, but Kane is obviously not as good as Ronaldo. This is the main point I am making. Seems like you agree, yet you're arguing for why he is as good and deserving of equal praise? Which is it? What makes Ronaldo obviously better in your opinion? I am simply saying that where he is obviously not as good is in part a lack of killer instinct. Same with Son. We had a higher xG than United yesterday, yet we scored less. (Is this where you tell me that stats don't matter?) Watch the game again and you'll see where Kane could have at least hit the target and Son should have made key passes instead of falling over. Ronaldo doesn't accept such mediocrities, not from himself or his teammates, and this is, at least partly, why he's better. (Not saying he doesn't make mistakes, but he is less comfortable doing so, than any of our players.) Ronaldo is clinical and savage, he also has a superiority complex. Conte is trying to instil this mentality in the squad. When Kane brings glory to the national team in the same way that Ronaldo, has for Portugal, he shall be worshipped similarly. Also, this cooing for Kane is usually done by pundits who want him to leave Spurs to 'better his career'. That's why it bores me. Soon as we score against Man City, not even Kane scoring or assisting, first thing out of the commentators mouth, "That's another side to his game, that's why Man City want him." F-oFF!! If that was another player making the same pass, there would be much less said. It's all part of the anti-spurs agenda. Kane can do no wrong, he is great. Spurs are the problem holding Kane back. Bollocks. Kane isn't always on fire when he has opportunity and right to be, neither is Son. (We seem to accept this truth more with Son for some reason.) It's as if Tottenham inconsistencies have noting to do with Kane. When we win it's 'Kane won for Spurs', when we lose it's 'the team isn't good enough for Kane'. ….as if Kane isn't a part of the same team that isn't good enough. Zzzz
I really didn't see refereeing decisions being significant to the outcome of that game. The only ones worthy of debate were the handball decisions, but that's because the laws are wishy-washy and open to interpretation. It wasn't a dirty game. There were only three bookings in the game - two for Utd, one for Spurs. i think most people think the difference was Ronaldo, not the ref.
I suppose the question is do you think kane would fit into most teams in the world? I don't even think its hard to say yes to most teams. Then you go through the rest if your players and bar son, i think there will be a few that you say could enter a few but most probably would be backup or not even worthy of that and this is where the phrase of team is holding back kane comes from when you consider how good he is vs what he has actually won
Evidently you’re not full of praise though because you were talking about “it’s not size” (no idea what that even means) when it came to Kane’s performance against City and Ronaldo’s vs us or some of Bale’s for us. As if him destroying City is no biggie but Ronaldo destroying us is an amazing feat. He deserves equal praise for similar performances, the notion some are trying to say is Kane isn’t a killer or doesn’t turn up enough in big games, yet when I mention the recent City one you’re someone seemingly playing it down. What chances did Kane miss then, please tell me, you’re saying go back and watch the match but haven’t actually referenced at what point Kane supposedly missed a chance. So remind me what glory Ronaldo brought to Portugal? Because wasn’t it the unknown Eder that scored the only goal in the Euro’s final with Ronaldo off the pitch? Or what about the nations league final? The one where Guedes scored the only goal. And you see this again is exactly the problem for Kane in many cases, when Kane doesn’t turn up for Spurs or England, no one else does, when Ronaldo didn’t turn up for Portugal, Eder or Guedes did. Even the world’s best player can’t do it singlehandedly all of the time, hence why I’ve also shown the instances in CL finals and Semis involving Ronaldo in which he didn’t score or assist. But when you’re surrounded by elite quality or even just players with the right mindset, then there are high chances that if you don’t turn up for a game someone else will. That’s why Bale and Modric won a ton with Madrid and nothing with Spurs, it’s why Walker’s won a ton with City and nothing with Spurs and so on… Better and bigger teams have a lot more better players and that means even when one world class player doesn’t turn up, it’s likely another will, when our world class player doesn’t turn up, no one else does but then what do we as fans do? We berate our world class player, try and pick faults with him or even say he’s part of the problem, instead of acknowledging he needs help. Bale and Modric (and van der Vaart!) were part of the same team that wasn’t good enough to win anything. Berbatov was part of the team that “only” won a league cup. Walker and Eriksen were part of the team that won nothing. Yet when these all left for other sides, they won the big stuff. Our key players clearly aren’t the problem to a team as they’ve shown they can go elsewhere and win stuff. If Kane got his wish and left us last summer he’d probably be winning the league with City this season. If Kane was more selfish though he’d have slapped in a transfer request around the time we finished 2nd. He could’ve joined any club in Europe and by now would’ve probably had a CV littered with trophies and medals but up until last summer he stayed extremely committed to a sinking ship and has paid the price for it.
