So you propose we enter a massive conflict? I think we have to stay realistic about the best way to end this and to stop the loss of life. The reality of what needs to happen and what is possible are two different things. NATO should be disbanded. The aggression both passive and otherwise should stop. The West should stop spying etc. The US etc should not have military bases near others borders. Its not required and causes incidents like this. We learnt this ages ago. The bio labs need to go. The Russians should **** off with their various transgressions of aggression. Invading countries, spying on other countries, hacking other countries. It should all stop but it won't. So we need a solution for the here and now. Putin is not going to allow Ukraine to join NATO, and have them sit on his doorstep. I'll be honest I agree with him on this, its passive aggression for no reason. It doesn't justify his actions in any way, but we are where we are now. And every single day blood is on the hands of all these parties. We need it to stop and if the price to pay is that Ukraine isn't allowed to join an organisation that shouldn't exist, holding the West to their previous promises, then I'm ok with that to be honest. Its better than people being killed which all the alternatives seem to lead to. Plus my fuel cost is through the roof and its pissing me off that I have MP's telling me its a price I'm happy to pay to stand in solidarity with the Ukraine. It isn't and the **** never asked me regardless
So essentially you agree that Ukraine can’t join NATO even if they want to because that would upset Putin. Struggling to see what gives Putin any right to have a say in another country’s plans. Russia may be big and a bully but that’s not the way forward. I’m not bothered that USA are also big and a bully. Russia have no right whatsoever to put one foot into Ukraine and they should not be allowed to benefit one iota from an illegal invasion of Ukraine.
They've started air strikes on three more Ukranian cities now. Not sure sanctions are going to be enough.....
I'm really feeling that this is not right now with us sitting back and thinking that putting some Ukrainian colour lights up on prominent buildings and clapping the bravery of the Ukrainian people in parliament is showing support. Someone need to sort this.
I am getting very very uncomfortable watching children being bombed and the rest of the world watching and saying how terrible it is without doing more to help. I know it's beyond complicated and dangerous, but it doesn't sit right at all.
Of the wars since 1945 - the US has launched 81% of them. Unfortunately it is fairly relevant. The US are using NATO and causing death. My point is the right solution is to disband NATO altogether. There is absolutely no justifiable reason for it to exist in its current format. We can't just ignore Russia's feelings about what's gone on for the last 40 years or we will not move forward. In these situations you have to concede some ground for the greater good. The greater good is innocent Russians and Ukrainians not dying due to world superpowers acting like bell ends. The ideal is to have one big happy family. But the US, Russia, ourselves, China etc aren't interested in that. What I don't like the idea of is entering the war and it escalating. Surely less deaths is more palatable? If Putin and Russia won't budge on the NATO thing, is it really more important than human life? It sounds a bit of a schoolyard petty stance to be honest. We can sort out the aftermath once people stop dying.
Problem of course now is that as Russia has invaded, Ukraine has even more reason to want to be in NATO than before so Russian actions may well be pushing the Ukrainians to do the opposite of what Russia wants. Difficult to say no to a people wanting to join a defensive alliance when they've just been invaded
Certainly is massive problem. Its why disbanding it for something more progressive would be the best solution. The US are bullies though, so they won't allow that. Ably supported by the likes of Canada and the UK. I just want folk to stop dying now. We've got Ukrainians setting up bases in schools and hospitals, and Putin using that as reasoning to bomb the **** out of them. With many not bases at all. Its a ****ing mess. Putin will just continue until he breaks their will or the rest of the world does the unthinkable. I'm not comfortably with playing with innocent lives while they all play some sick chess game. The main thing is make it stop, if that means we concede some ground in the name of life saving, then just ****ing do it. Its not the time to be puffing out your chest and getting all principles about it.
Of course the issue is that Putin has gone so far now and lost more than he was expecting that he can't not continue until he has captured all of Ukraine. Pulling back now even if NATO was disbanded would be a defeat in his eyes. The Ukrainians aren't going to stop fighting for their country and nor should they, we'd expect the same of any people. So that leaves NATO countries with the choice of doing nothing, essentially abandoning Ukraine and watching them get slaughtered or continuing with sanctions and arms donations to give them a fighting chance. Of course there's always the militarised option from NATO but I really don't want to contemplate where that leads
I don't think he wants to 'capture' Ukraine, not in that he wants it as part of Russia - at least he's never given any indication of that. I think he'd like them to surrender so that he can use it as the bargain chip to force the West to do what he wanted in the first place. You're right though, he's so far down the line with it now, you can't pull back. Regardless I don't think he would - he is very intelligent and very manipulating. He's bloody minded in that he is determined to force them from his borders, and I don't think he will stop until they agree. He has a screw loose in this regard which is a dangerous man to be dealing with. He will know full well that Ukraine and the West will never ever agree to Ukraine giving up them sovereignty anyway and nor should they. I don't think he wants it though. This rhetoric from the West that he wants to recreate the old USSR doesn't seem to bear anything like reality. I just don't like the idea of what comes from a wider scale war. This is bad enough. Sanctions isn't going to be enough to stop the bloodshed I fear. Which means we either concede ground or go to war. I'd prefer we concede some ground than kill more people. My other fear is the US will not like that he is destroying their bases/labs, getting their tech etc. They pulled the 100K troops out who were training with Ukrainian forces the moment it started - they only fell back to neighbouring countries. Its not in the US nature to stand idly by while Russia gets their hands on whatever they've been up to. The West seem to be keen to avoid entering is the only good thing. But that's only a good thing if they negotiate otherwise you're just sacrificing the Ukraine and its people while shouting "stop that you bad man" which isn't really good enough.
I think the sanctions do work, the problem is the lead time on them. Will take 3+ months to fully kick in I suspect and the invasion will likely be done by then. Of course would have helped if everyone had gone full sanctions immediately rather than phasing them in. The UK in particular has been bad for this. I would guess post invasion that he would probably try to make Ukraine similar to Belarus. Essentially a vassal state as a bit of breathing room between Russia and the EU. The question then is do the West keep their sanctions in place until Ukraine is no longer a vassal state or do they go back to business as usual?
They've all been too indecisive. Its pure selfishness and looking after their interests. They can put it down to not wanting to escalate all they want, reality is they don't give a **** about Ukraine and its people really. If they did they wouldn't use them and the fact they are a poor nation to antagonise him. They'd create genuine trade links with them rather than ones with caveats/secret deals. As you say sanctions do work, but he has been prepping for this because he could see it wasn't going to stop happening. So he has been planning this counter for a while. If you look back at the interviews with Stone, he was mentioning then in a roundabout way of dealing with it. That's 2015-17. He's had a further 5-7 years and the distraction of a pandemic. Not that the West haven't been prepping also for the last 40 years! Its a pathetic situation between a bunch of small cock ****ers. The reality is though that prepping makes sanctions a longer deal. That to me is an unacceptable loss of human life for their game of chess. Which is why I'd rather just concede some ground and allow people to survive. That's what he will do I'd imagine with Ukraine but to a lesser extent. The people of Belarus are fully on board. The Ukrainians will never be. The economics between Russia and Belarus are deeply linked. They hold similar views to Russia about the West. Whereas Ukraine is also reliant on trade etc with Russia, it has strong links with Poland and Germany too. The Ukrainians always knew they were strategically a tipping point in the East v West saga. Hence both the US and Russia meddling in their politics for as long as you care to think about. Plenty of guilt on all side including some in Ukraine. But the man on the street has had **** all to do with any of it.
I am assuming here that you mean the Belarus president rather than the Belarus people as it was clear from their last attempt at an election that there is a large dissenting voice within the country to the current regime. I suspect that the reason they were able to crack down so hard on the ‘uprising’ was that Lukashenko knew he had the support of Putin. I can see another Ukraine happening there if the people get what they want, as that is not in Russia’s interest.
Not sure why you think disbanding NATO is a solution, unless you are proposing a European-only alliance. Its clear that the events in Ukraine have made a number of European countries realise a) that they weren’t spending enough on defence and b) they were too dependent on Russia for energy so there may be more impetus for a robust European Defence Alliance. I think whatever happens at the end of this Russia has shot itself in the foot. The European attitude towards Russia has changed dramatically. I reckon the Americans are laughing themselves silly over this as it has played right into their hands.
He’s subjugating by military force and cyber-aggression The world will never be what we want it to be (one race in peace) because of ****s being everywhere and often rising to the top due to their ruthlessness Lots of people seem to like ****s that have risen to the top Lots more people are scared of ****s that rose to the top Nothing will end the presence of global ****ishness We must face each situation in isolation Putin’s invasion of Ukraine is ‘now’ so it must be dealt with ‘now’ and not by finding a time machine in which we can go and erase US & UK wrongs We can reflect later We have to act against Putin and his cohorts now - but that’s limited to sanctions and non-boots actions It doesn’t matter what you label the club but countries want a gang that can protect them from Putins - so whether it’s NATO or Cato it’ll exist - no point saying let’s disband it; Putin necessitates its existence…. let’s call it the Anti-**** Lunch Club if it helps, it’ll be doing the same thing and for good reason If a country wants to be in the ACLC then it’s their choice - as long as they’re a functioning democracy The same **** will happen somewhere else soon We’ll have to live with it and not pretend it’s anything other than vulnerable ****s in charge waving their cocks about Every life saved by signalling that we ‘understand’ and letting Putin subjugate Ukraine will be replaced by ten lives lost in his next excursion (Slovakia/and his secret ‘removals’ more readily occurring NATO’s a mutual security club; to protect against aggression toward member states and their borders - it’s not an amassing army waiting to invade Putin has shown NATO members - like Greece, Turkey, Romania and Spain, that there is good reason to have a club What a country does within its own borders is its own business as long as it does not seek to actively harm its citizens or another state (in my view) If you want a “bio lab” (whatever the **** that is) then have one - but if you’ve released your dark bio lab product in another state then you should be thrown out of the club and not expect support from the other members I’m drunk. I wish to **** that Putin and his pussy generals would die so the soldiers can go home and have a beer
Skipping past Tolstoy’s bullshit… we should arm the Ukrainians to the teeth with stealth fighters and tell the Russians they stole them. Lies come naturally to Russia. Then we should enforce a no fly zone. **** it.
It is late, she’s asleep, I’m a bit much for her I think. plus - 31pts, Ukraine, long week, girlfriend’s too young, parents are too old, car needs replacing, 2 bags of shopping cost £46 earlier…. so a late night and red wine were the answer
