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Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v Leeds United

Discussion in 'Tottenham Hotspur' started by PleaseNotPoll, Nov 18, 2021.

  1. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    Fernandes also isn't an Eriksen replacement, though - Eriksen is mainly a creator, both Lo Celso and Fernandes come from deep to score as well as create, hence the VDV comparison. That's like saying Toby was a Fazio replacement because they're both CBs, when the reality is that they're completely different players who just happen to play in the same position

    Saying that Lo Celso doesn't do anything with the ball even when he does get it underlines the issue: "even when he does get it", which right there underlines the issue in getting the ball past the halfway line in the first place and, if it does so, it usually takes two or three phases of play more than necessary to get it there, so of course literally any player is going to have issues doing anything with the ball when the opposition have had time to react to the ball moving up the pitch

    More than anything else, none of Winks, Hojbjerg or Skipp are in the team to break lines between defence and attack at pace like Dembele did, the only player in our squad in that role is Ndombele and it has to be said he is bad at it, which is why the ubermensch and Nuno played him as an AM rather than a CM and further exacerbated the issue of not getting the ball between defence and attack as the player who is supposed to do that is playing in attack, while Mason and (so far, at least) Conte just dropped him from the starting lineup

    Think about it this way: if water isn't coming out of the tap in your kitchen sink the issue is more often than not with the leak further down the pipe which is causing water to pool around your feet - but you're blaming the tap because it's not getting the water
     
    #201
  2. Citizen Kane.

    Citizen Kane. Well-Known Member

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    The decisions we made in Poch's final season remain the single biggest reason not to rehire him in the near future.

    As much of a phenom as he was, there is every possibility he benefited disproportionately from a combination of factors which all happened to align in 2016-17.
    A) An unusually large and diverse range of academy/youth products all coming through simultaneously. Off the top of my head: Mason, Bentaleb, Rose, Townsend and Kane isn't a bad crop at all.
    B) A run of unusually shrewd transfer windows which saw us bring in Toby, Son, Davies, Dier and Alli in the space of 18 months.
    C) The unusually poor form of many if not most of our rivals during that period.

    Much as I loved Poch, our signing players like Sanchez, Aurier, Sissoko plus those you've mentioned added to which are the Tier 1 rumours that he turned down multiple players who are now PL proven, lead me to worry that he has many qualities but rebuilding a squad isn't one of them.
     
    #202
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  3. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    He would’ve been an Eriksen replacement if he’d joined. They play in the same position, just because they have different styles it doesn’t mean they’re not replacements. It’s like when we signed Dembele to replace Modric, both players are completely different but Dembele replaced Modric just as Lo Celso was expected to replace Eriksen.

    Lo Celso simply has issues of seemingly knowing what to do when he has the ball. He’s as clueless as anyone when he’s got it. The fact he and Ndombele have barely been on the pitch together is exactly why Ndombele can’t be blamed for Lo Celso’s failings as you’ve claimed. Just like Ndombele, he’s also been tried in a variety of positions by managers to try and get a tune out of him and none of them have worked, he’s done nothing at CM, nothing at AM and nothing at RW.

    And going forward it’s likely he won’t get much of a look in under Conte unless something drastic happens. It’s almost a given Conte will look to bolster the midfield with a forward thinking player and with Hojbjerg and Skipp more or less guaranteed to at least be one (or two depending on the long term formation) of the starting midfielders in Conte’s system, Lo Celso’s gonna be twiddling his thumbs on the bench until he’s binned off.

    All of our managers have struggled to get anything consistent out of both he and Ndombele. One isn’t to blame for the other’s failings, they’re both to blame for their own.
     
    #203
  4. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    He was the perfect manager at the perfect time for us when we hired him. Done a fantastic job but as with most, good things come to an end.

    He’s not the manager we need(ed) right now. That’s no disrespect to him as a manager but just that times are different and that means different requirements.

    I do think we’ll see Poch manage us again some day but I’m hoping it won’t be for a while just yet. I also hope for his sake he doesn’t take the Utd job, there’s clearly some issues at PSG but providing he’s not sacked beforehand, he’ll be picking up his first league title as a manager and I don’t think he should look at giving that up halfway through the season (as some reports are suggesting) to take over Utd and basically look at consolidating 4th this season. He won’t do any better than that this campaign and it’s arguable he wouldn’t be able to do much better long term either. Chelsea, Pool and City have better teams and better managers and until those managers leave it’s hard to see anyone breaking that top three anytime soon. If anything, I’d even argue that if Conte gets backed here, we have a better chance at top four and beyond than Utd would with bigger resources and Poch, because with respect to Poch, Conte’s in another league to him.
     
    #204
  5. paultheplug

    paultheplug Well-Known Member

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    The managers of Argentina and Real Betis didn’t have a problem him as he bas been/is a very good player for both teams. Poor players do not get selected for Argentina. I watched him at Betis and he was controlling the games. I hope that Conte gives him a chance to show that for us, but he needs to be further up the pitch, not constantly helping out the defence. The improvement in our defence will help him
     
    #205
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  6. PleaseNotPoll

    PleaseNotPoll Well-Known Member
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    please log in to view this image
     
    #206
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  7. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    All this club seems to do of late is give chances to players that consistently let us down so he probably will get another between now and January.
     
    #207
  8. "Thanks for that Brian"

    "Thanks for that Brian" Well-Known Member

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    In today's Chairman's statement (accompanying the financial results), Daniel says...

    "Since opening the stadium in April, 2019, we have spent almost £400m on players. Player spending is no guarantee of success, and our focus must be on improved recruitment, coaching, fitness and a competitive mindset."

    It's not great to see the "Player spending is no guarantee of success" line trotted out again. Yes, he's correct that pissing away £400m on poor signings doesn't give any hope of success, let alone guarantee it. Poor players have been bought, along with players that the coaches didn't want and/or didn't suit the way that we were going to play. That should condemn those who oversaw the waste, not the necessary process of buying talent.

    He's the head of the organization and has sat on the Transfer Committee throughout that appalling waste of that money. If he thinks that trotting out his favourite mantra will help him now, he's delusional. Let it go, Daniel. Find the money, back Conte or nobody will forgive you for ****ing this up.
     
    #208
  9. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    Our transfer record under ENIC is as good as most clubs. We had a run of good signings and a run of mediocre ones. That's life. The key is treating triumph and disaster the same
     
    #209
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  10. "Thanks for that Brian"

    "Thanks for that Brian" Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure that I could disagree with any statement more than this one.

    The key to success is taking failure personally and committing to eradicating it. It was Poch's mantra when he came to the club. Conte takes failure personally, it's why we've had to appoint him. Too many of the players are happy to accept mediocrity in their own fitness and performances. Conte won't stand that for a second and quite right too.
     
    #210
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  11. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    No he wouldn't, because was a different type of player which means that he wouldn't have been a replacement. That's like saying that Paulinho was a Modric replacement because he happened to be a CM, when his role was to basically be a Lampard making late breaks to the edge of the area while Modric was the metronome in midfield - without considering the obvious issue that, as he would be partnering either Sandro or Capoue in midfield, they need somebody to set up the moves that would culminate with him making late breaks to the edge of the box because that system needed a Modric-type

    And this is an issue that just keeps happening, as we wind up with managers or DoFs signing a glut of players but missing an obvious piece of the puzzle, for example Baldini brought in Paulinho and AVB played him alongside Sandro or Capoue and wondered why we were so slow moving the ball forward, Poch brought in Ndombele and Lo Celso but didn't bring in a DM (in spite being offered Tielemans) and wondered why our midfield couldn't control a match if their lives depended on it, and the ubermensch had us set up with our defence on the edge of the penalty area yet wondered why they were under constant pressure when anyone watching could see the lack of a proper DM made his tactical plan self-defeating long and our opponents merely had to go through the formality of making that defeat happen

    That's why we've wound up with an entirely functional Hojbjerg/Skipp pivot, because we're basically playing a good 15-20 yards deeper than most of the players were signed to play and that is the best combination available to do that, so the question is how far Conte moves us up the pitch this season - although realistically we need at least one midfielder signed in January to start that process
     
    #211
  12. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    Paulinho wasn’t signed to replace Modric, Dembele was. Paulinho joined the window Huddlestone and Livermore left for Hull so he along with Capoue replaced those two.

    When Conte does add a midfielder who do you think is going to be the players who really suffer? It’s almost certainly not going to be Hojbjerg whilst Skipp has done his chances of remaining in the XI no harm, especially if it switches to a 352. It’s going to be both Lo Celso and Ndombele because the midfielder Conte brings in is likely going to be one expected to get that ball further forward and assist with the attacks, something both of those have failed to do consistently since joining. Neither player has been good enough and it isn’t just on Ndombele’s shoulders, the Argentine’s been just as ****, if not worse.
     
    #212
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  13. Citizen Kane.

    Citizen Kane. Well-Known Member

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    A lot of what you're saying makes sense. When we were first bidding for him I said at the time that nothing about his game reminded me of Eriksen. He seemed more of a Lamela-Alli hybrid although injuries and lack of confidence mean that the Lamela elements have all but disappeared which leaves a the Alli bits...and Alli can't get into the team either.

    You see him as a VDV replacement but that begs the question: why would we replace a player who played for us a decade ago in a totally different system?

    In the cold light of day the fact is 4 different managers have struggled to find a system that accommodates both Tanguy and Lo Celso at the same time, which is embarrassing considering how long we scouted them for and how much they cost. They've become our Lampard/Gerrard headache - the major difference being on their own they aren't much good either.

    It was a colossal failure in recruitment, simple as.
     
    #213
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  14. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    Completely agree. But whatever you do random good and bad things will happen and you shouldn't be blown off course by either.
     
    #214
  15. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    Watching Sunday's match with Winks and Hojbjerg alongside each other, Winks looked much the better player. Almost every forward pass Hojbjerg attempted went astray and even his goal was a mishit. I still think our current best team has Lo Celso in the pivot with Skipp, and Ndombele or Dele instead of Lucas. If we can get better players than Dele, Lo Celso and Ndombele in, then I will be surprised but pleased.
     
    #215
  16. The Huddlefro

    The Huddlefro Well-Known Member

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    I agree a bit with the pivot. I think more highly of Højbjerg than you do but he may become a bit of a millstone. The best combination is probably a more creative (but still hard working) player alongside Skipp, who has more discipline in the holding role than Højbjerg.

    The issue we have with the balance of the team at the moment is progressing the ball. Skipp/Højbjerg in a pivot isn’t creative enough and that places almost the entire emphasis for ball progression on the wingbacks, and Lucas coming deep for the ball. Lucas as we all know is great at taking the ball and driving forward but his end product is frustratingly poor, or at least inconsistent. But his interplay with Son can work well to open up space and drag opponents out of position, as we saw in the second half of the Leeds game.

    I don’t think Conte trusts Tanguy yet, his comments before the game suggest as much. Trying Gio in with Skipp would be a risk though and it’s a statement to drop Højbjerg, who for all his faults, has good ball recovery stats and does positively impact the team. That’s the Højbjerg paradigm for me - he’s good enough not to be dropped but he can’t do what Skipp does and we don’t have a lot of alternatives to account for his limitations offensively and his lack of discipline when it comes to defensive positioning.

    So do we revert to 352 with a 10? Dropping Lucas would be harsh and also negatively affect the team if whoever comes in at 10 - be it Alli, Gio or Tanguy - don’t perform. Ultimately the issue is that Son is well off the boil right now and isn’t having the impact in the buildup or at the sharp end of play that we need him to. But playing 352 and having Lucas up top with Kane and dropping Sonny for a 10 would also be a massive call. But Conte needs to find a solution and that’s why he’s paid the big bucks.

    It should be said as well that the first/second half difference in the Leeds game was as much tactical as anything else, Conte made changes to the team without changing players. We had an xG of c.2 in the second half, 11/4 shots/on goal and over 3x the number of touches in the opposition box 2nd half vs 1st. There’s definitely improvements to be made to the starting XI and squad but as fitness and understanding of Conte’s football increases I expect more consistency in performance. As I said, the approach to the game seemed to be under the circumstances to manage the first half then blow them away in the second. The solution may come in the coming weeks as those situations improve and we can play more full games in the manner we did in the second half vs Leeds. Then players can be bought in to mitigate the obvious gaps in the starting XI.
     
    #216
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  17. District Line

    District Line Well-Known Member
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    100% agree. It's one thing I'll credit Mourinho for at Chelsea.
     
    #217
  18. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    Winks was probably the worst player on the pitch in the first half, Conte himself said that Winks “struggled a lot” but improved in the second, which he did, though so did everyone else.

    Improving on Dele, Ndombele and Lo Celso should be an expectancy, not seen as a pleasant surprise. None of those make an XI of a side in the top ten at present. Dele would struggle to make pretty much any side in the league as it happens.
     
    #218
  19. PleaseNotPoll

    PleaseNotPoll Well-Known Member
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    I think that Winks struggled because he didn't seem to know what he was supposed to be doing.
    He was playing deep and so was Hojbjerg, so nobody was linking the midfield with the attack.
    The Dane seemed to get forward a lot more after the break, so Winks had his role defined by that.
     
    #219
  20. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    That’s generally been the problem for him the last 4 or 5 years <laugh>
     
    #220
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