Exactly. Plus you can't underestimate the power of everyone getting on board the Leicester Fairytale (TM). From overtly, such as their inability to give away a penalty, to more subtly which led to us getting three Monday night games in a row, and always having to play catch up. To say it was all because of ability on the pitch is beyond naive.
Highly disagree about this. You only need to look at the prem in the last 10 years. Theres consistency in players as well as how high the highs are and whether the tactics also suit the players. Take someone like John Terry. I don't think anyone would disagree he was one of the best. He would be shocking playing a high line though as he was slow and that style doesn't suit him. Lets take Toby and Jan when they were in their prime, at one point i had these two the best 2 CBs in the league (both ex ajax products?) even though they were not rated as such as. Those two would have been in with a shout as best CBs at the time. Outside of the very best and we are talking prime messi, suarez, ronaldo it is hard to give a definitive who is better at the time. Form, consistency how the team is playing all play a part. This time last year people were asking on this board how i felt about Ruediger and i think the general consensus here and myself was that he was similar to Sanchez. The way he has played and performed in the system under Tuechel has pushed him up there as a really decent CB. Kane of recent year was world class and everyone loved him. Since the turn of the year no one would put him above half the strikers in the league on form.
It's a real conundrum as others have mentioned. We are essentially caught in between two worlds. There is zero comparison between us and Brentford or even with Leicester or Dortmund, in terms of finances or infrastructure. And if our net transfer spend appears to be similar to the clubs that pursue the model you've described, our wage bill dwarfs them. So we are simply not in the same orbit. However, we are also very much not in the same orbit as the likes of City, Utd or Chelsea. So we're a bit caught between the proverbials at the moment in terms of who to emulate. And I think to an extent that is what has driven the confused mess we've seen since the stadium build ended all comparisons between us and Leicester/Dortmund probably permanently. As others have pointed out, the Dortmund model works but only in cycles. They will assemble a group, that group will either touch or come close to touching glory, then it will be picked off by bigger clubs and it is back to square one. Ironically, we demonstrated this cycle in motion in the course of meeting them three years in a row in European competition. In 2015/16, they were on a downward slope from a peak. We were still very much at the outset of an upward cycle. Their quality and experience told as they made light work of us, winning 5-1 on aggregate. But Klopp and Lewandowski had just left, then Aubameyang and others followed. Fast forward a year and we'd passed them on the cycle, beating them in the CL but not all too convincingly. The following year the gap was even starker as we tore them to shreds at Wembley before strolling to victory in Dortmund. We didn't concede a goal in either leg. That's what a "cyclical" team looks like. Very little consistency over an extended period, lots of ups and downs and lots of sustained pressure to get the next 'crop' equal to if not better than the previous one. As said, i think we are currently stuck between those two worlds.
It hasn't stopped working though and doesn't look like it will anytime soon. It's also being utilised by other clubs that are enjoying varying degrees of success. I also think it's impossible to actually deploy a numbered ranking system in football. At any given time there could be just 50 top class players or 200+, I'd say right now we're closer to the latter, so I would probably struggle naming the current top 100 but I know I'd have Eriksen, Suarez, Zlatan and de Jong in the conversation with de Ligt about top class former Ajax players. Vertonghen and Alderweireld would've been in that conversation just a couple years back too. Whilst players like van de Beek and Ziyech are also great players but are not seemingly favoured by their current managers, another manager in charge of their respective teams could have differing opinions though, because I doubt many other people would pick Fred or McTominay over van de Beek for instance. As for Hojbjerg and Winks, again I wouldn't really rank them but I'd say Hojbjerg is considerably better than Winks in just about all aspects of the game, so the difference in performance isn't really tiny.
I think you’re absolutely right. Dortmund have something where a PL club can’t create a similar situation. Similar with Ajax actually. Both can offer the top young talents consistent CL football and a shop window. At Ajax you’re very likely to win domestic trophies too. Dortmund are in a more competitive league so less guarantees of that there. If I was a young player’s agent I’d look at a trajectory like Ajax -> Dortmund -> ‘Big Club’ as ideal in terms of providing a balance of development and top level football with a chance of trophies on the way. What those clubs do is not replicable in the English league pyramid though. There’s too much money, competition and strength in depth to be considered the number 1 destination for top talent in the league. Spurs are not trying to emulate anyone, IMO. Since the advent of the PL and CL and the money it has bought to the game, entrenching the majority of the traditional superpowers of football in their leading positions, I’m struggling to name a club off the top of my head who have organically, without a big takeover, broken into the ‘Big Club’ cartel in Europe. The traditional English and European superpowers of football are only disrupted by new money clubs like City, Chelsea and PSG. Becoming a ‘Big Club’ (what I consider to be a realistic end destination for players and managers after they leave a Spurs/Leicester/Dortmund and therefore compete for the biggest trophies) organically is a rarity to the point where I’m not sure anyone has actually managed it. And that’s Levy’s grand plan.
There's a few other clubs in the same bracket as Ajax and Dortmund, most obviously the Portuguese big three of Porto, Benfica and Sporting, Leverkusen usually operate along similar lines to Dortmund, Atalanta in Serie A, and both Lyon and Marseille in Ligue 1 Of course there's a bit of risk associated with some of those clubs, as Portugal regularly only has two CL spots while Leverkusen, Lyon and Marseille aren't guaranteed CL qualifiers, so a young player could sign with promises of CL football and instead walk into a team scrapping to get into the Europa League because one or two other teams hit an unexpected purple patch
Even in their early 2010s slump, the Poool still had far more revenue than Spurs. "Secondly, there is already a precedent of that happening when Leicester won so it can happen." The ultimate "black swan" event. The only comparable event in top flight England football is Forest 1977-78. Which was 40 odd years PRIOR. "Thirdly, you say it needs 4 clubs to fail, i say it means theres more opportunity as these 4 clubs help take points off each other rather than having 1 big club steam rolling everyone else." He is correct. Tis near 100% correlation that the PL winners of the past 20 years have come from the four wealthiest clubs (by revenue) each year. "Lastly, Atletico in Spain also follow their own philosophy and mantra aren't all about the big money mantra and they have won a few." In La Liga, there has effectively only been an incumbent "top 2" (by revenue) , with Atletico being a clear third. Much more likely that 1-2 will fail when you are #3, than 1-4 will fail when you are #5 or below.
I try not to have strong opinions on which players are better than others except for the very best because my head tells me I can't really tell. I suspect Hojbjerg and Winks are somewhere in the top 1000 players in the world but both outside the top 250. What I do know is that Hojbjerg has been ever present in our worst run of league matches for years. I just don't see that he has improved us.
in the last 15 years Inter and Juventus have shared all the Serie A titles between them. in that time Chelsea won 3 titles, 2 CL, 4 FA cups & 2 EFL cups And you finished 2nd once in the premier. That's why I laugh at you comparing yourself to them.
Nobody was, though. They were comparing the current position we're in to the worse positions that some of them were in. As for us once finishing 2nd, that's better than West Ham have managed in their entire history. That 2nd place was behind our current manager, too.
"Cease and desist" incomings from Bari/Siena legal (for the defamatory insult of comparing them to the Spanners) ...
I've been looking at the Chelsea team from 16/17, which Conte won the league with. The following players made the most appearances: Courtois, Moses, Azpilicueta, Luiz, Cahill, Alonso, Kante, Matic, Hazard, Pedro, Costa. Willian and Fabregas also made plenty of appearances, split between starts and sub appearances. Michy Batshuayi also came on a lot, but only made one start. Don't know if this'll have any significance for our team, of course. Interesting that it differs a little from the system that we've been told to expect.
Essentially it was: Courtois Moses, azpi, luiz, cahill, alonso Kante. Matic Pedro costa hazard Occasionally fab for matic if we wanted to be slightly more attacking/chasing a game and willian for pedro. In our bad 2nd season, costa got replaced by morata and conte decided to start willian instead of pedro. We also sold matic. So a 343. At inter he want 352 with lukaku and martinez up top
I would love to know what yarns Levy has spun Conte in order to persuade him to join, I suspect Levy will be secretly hoping Conte can turn our players into winners without much investment and will worry about Conte`s inevitable transfer demands later. In a way, an eighteen month contract is a win win for Levy, Conte either turns us around and gets us playing with limited investment (Levy`s dream) or tells Levy it requires major investment, at which point the falling out will begin when Levy fails to deliver, and they part ways with a negligible pay off.
