I feel that players need to be given time. Because James hasn't created a hat trick every game so far I'm not gonna say he's not worth the money we spent. Firpo is getting better each game. I'm happy to give him time. It's great that the players mentioned all started great but not all players can do that. In your eyes Phillips, Bamford, Ayling, Klich and numerous others should have been gone long before they became the players they are
How much did Phillips, Klich, Bamford and Ayling cost us? Rodrigo is a Spanish International and he certainly hasn’t given value for money on what we paid. I said I hope James and Firpo come good but the fact at this moment in time is it’s not been money we’ll spent. Costa at £15m that’s wasted, Harrison and his stats, you can’t compare Championship with PL and his value needs the loan fees added
The money spent on Harrison, Costa & Rodrigo are not relevant to my point and im not saying I disagree with you on those players. James & Firpo might end up like those but also might end up being star guys like others have. It is far too early to say they have not lived up to their price tags yet. Strikes me that if you bought a house you would be upset that is value didn't double within a week. Be patient and judge accordingly when they've had the proper time. Were you one of the ones saying we were in a relegation scrap after two games?
Genuine question as I keep arguing with myself about this. Not just at @ristac but open to everyone else too. Does it take more time to adapt to life at Leeds with Bielsaball than say a Burnley or a Palace? Gelhardt alluded to it in his post match interview on Saturday when he said that it is hard in the first few months to adjust but then you see the improvements. Maybe some of the lads are still adjusting to a different training schedule? Again football should just be football but Gelhardt isn't the only one to mention it.
Would seem to be the case, for most players anyway. Is this not why Bielsa doesn't like bringing players in in January, and why he prefers to get players in early in the summer so they benefit from a full pre-season. He also doesn't like players coming back late from the summer break as Pontus found out only too well. He did give Phillips a bit of leeway after the euros but I guess that luxury comes with being a special player.
Not arguing mate, just sharing opinions and creating debate Llorente has class, you feel he could walk into any team and adapt… Here is the thing for me and partly why I say value for money… Orta presents Bielsa with top quality players and Bielsa says no for one reason or another, he is ultra fussy. When Bielsa says yes I expect that player to be almost Bielsa ready, an ideal Bielsa player. I think back to one preseason under Bielsa in his first Championship season and how we came out against the likes of Stoke and Derby and we couldn’t believe the transformation. The entire squad looked unlike anything we’d seen
Firpo is quality and begining to show it. His problem besides learning Bielsaball is living in a foreign country and adapting to family life here where his wife and child dont speak English. He is also being messed around on the left wing. He arrived and was paired up with Harrison every time you saw him, he was learning to traingulate down the left with Jack. Then Dan James lands and he has to adapt again. It was starting to come before picking up the injury, he has also been out with Covid. He will be a top player for us before long.
Words of Phil Hay: Cody Drameh has been one of the shining lights under Mark Jackson since his 2020 arrival from Fulham, earning the under-23 Player of the Year award for the 2020/21 season. He has his work cut out to earn his senior debut at Elland Road though, with Luke Ayling his main obstacle and now Jamie Shackleton showing his capabilities to move into the defence. However, he’s making the right moves and his inclusion in the first team for training and matchday squads suggest he isn’t far away. A Carabao Cup clash tonight might not be the chance for him to make his debut, but he’s someone Marcelo Bielsa will certainly be looking at as a future first-team regular. That’s the view of The Athletic’s Phil Hay, who had this to say in his pre-Arsenal discussion with fans when asked about the prospect of Drameh being disheartened by the pecking order in front of him: The point about Drameh was that he could be a natural successor to Ayling, who still has time left but is clearly not in his first flush of youth. Drameh is well thought of and I do feel like he’s got a serious chance here if he’s
Anyone good with stats out there? A question that's been bugging me - what's our win %age playing 4-1-4-1 compared to playing 3-3-3-1? I know it can't be an exact science (e.g. depends on home/away / who plays for & against / who we play etc.), but I'd still like to see the numbers. My gut feeling is that 4-1-4-1 is far, far more successful than 3-3-3-1. Personally, in terms of enjoyment & expectation, I'd plump for 4-1-4-1 every time. Not convinced we need the extra CB against 2 strikers, especially when we're supposed to be defending from the front. The extra man in midfield might make more of a difference than an extra CB imo.
Personally I would play Drameh tonight along with all of the others considered 1st Team or thereabouts. I'm thinking Joffy, Cresswell & Jimmy in particular with as may regular 1st Team players as possible around them. Just had a week off for the borefest that is International break so wouldn't worry about fixture pile up or tiredness. My only caveat being that we don't risk any more injuries where we are thin on cover. Sunday is more important than tonight but a win would be great for morale. By ^^^^^^ I mean, don't chuck in 6 or 7 possibles and exit the cup meakly - give it a go and let the best of the youngsters prove they are part of the 1st team fabric
I think Phil Hay had something done at the Athletic with stats man Tom Warville last weekend. In fact Elland may have lifted it and posted it a few days ago. My memory thinks the 3-3-3-1 formation only resulted in 17% win ratio and the best formation for us by a long way is 4-1-4-1. We tend to get pushed into 3 at the back when we lose Phillips
Which formation suits Leeds best – 4-1-4-1 or 3-3-1-3? please log in to view this image By Phil Hay and Tom Worville The “El Loco” nickname given to Marcelo Bielsa was derived, at least in part, from the formation he introduced at Newell’s Old Boys. Argentinian football looked upon his 3-3-1-3 blueprint and saw novel and daring tactics, the prototype of a coach devoid of caution. Thirty years on and the cap still fits. They celebrated that system in Chile too where Bielsa made a beast of a middling international team but in England and with Leeds United, 3-3-1-3 has been held in reserve. It is his fall-back formation when a rival manager’s set-up compels Bielsa to break from 4-1-4-1, but only then. Two up top for the opposition means three at the back for Leeds, the way it has been since the inception of Bielsa’s tenure. Leeds were arranged that way against Southampton at St Mary’s on Saturday, maintaining a three-man defence throughout a 1-0 defeat, and Bielsa was asked about it. Are his team as competent in a 3-3-1-3 system as they look playing 4-1-4-1? Do they defend as well and attack as well? And what do the stats say about the comparison? Those questions are interesting because, at the outset of a match, Bielsa never embraces anything other than one of those two formations. His team are fluid in-game and his substitutions can alter them structurally but Bielsa would stick with either system indefinitely if opposition formations were also rigid. The regularity with which Leeds go 4-1-4-1 is symptomatic of an era of football in which few managers favour a line-up with two centre-forwards (something Bielsa shies away from too). The thinking behind Bielsa’s switch in starting formations is relatively simple. Against a lone striker, he wants two centre-backs. Against two strikers, he wants three. It gives him a spare defender in either scenario, providing cover when Leeds are out of possession but offering an extra passing outlet when Leeds try to navigate the opposition’s press. The central figure in the defensive three has a licence to push up and carry the ball forward. As poor as Saturday’s performance at Southampton was, the high press used by Ralph Hasenhuttl showed why a spare body can be needed to find a route through an active front two. But is 3-3-1-3 a system that truly works for Leeds? There is no argument about the effectiveness of Bielsa’s 4-1-4-1. He has lined up his team like that in more than 100 league matches and his record before this season was beyond reproach. By implementing the 4-1-4-1 system back in 2018, he found new life in players such as Kalvin Phillips, Mateusz Klich and Liam Cooper. The tactics suited the attributes of his squad and helped Leeds to pile it on with width, third-man runs, overlaps, underlaps and reams of possession. Switching to a three-man defence involves sacrificing a central midfielder, even if the 3-3-1-3 system nominally allows for a midfield three. In that arrangement, Bielsa’s flanking midfielders are as much like wing-backs, sticking to wide areas and leaving a lone body in a large central zone. On Saturday, Stuart Dallas shifted to the left side and Klich was asked to hold the fort in the middle. A tough afternoon developed for Klich, who was isolated in open areas and too often cut off from Bielsa’s defenders. Leeds’ build-up play was so disjointed that they finished the game without a shot on target. If there is a perception that Leeds cope less well in a 3-3-1-3 — something that would be understandable given how infrequently they line up like that — then results data says otherwise. Bielsa has only turned to a three-man defence 17 times in all his fixtures as manager but Leeds have won three quarters of them with a strong goal difference and an average of 2.41 points per game. The caveat is that the clubs who field two strikers up front are often among the weaker opponents. In the Premier League, Leeds have gone three at the back against Southampton and Burnley three times each and Sheffield United, Crystal Palace and West Bromwich Albion once. Everton are the only team with genuine top-six aspirations who have forced Bielsa to bend from 4-1-4-1. please log in to view this image Because of this, better conclusions can be gleaned from the performance data of 90-minute displays in different formations. Going back to the start of Bielsa’s reign, there are definite distinctions between his 4-1-4-1 and 3-3-1-3. In a 4-1-4-1, Leeds post a stronger expected goals (xG) per 90 minutes, produce more shots on target and concede fewer efforts to the opposition. There is a clear margin in the expected goals difference, which deducts the xG of opposition chances from the xG of Leeds’ chances. The long and short of the numbers is that Bielsa’s side are more impressive as a unit in their 4-1-4-1 system. This might be explained by the fact that lining up 4-1-4-1 so often has made Leeds highly tuned in that formation. But it is also true that 4-1-4-1 is used by Bielsa against the leading sides in the Premier League, none of whom play two up front. The same was often true in the Championship. Leeds’ xG last season peaked in a 1-0 win away at Everton, reaching 3.21 with a back four, and the fluency of their attacking during Bielsa’s first three years was in no small way down to their understanding of how they were supposed to link and move. Interplay became second nature and because of that, chances were easy to come by. please log in to view this image The style of passing is much the same regardless of the formation Bielsa picks. It starts with Illan Meslier and goes through either the centre-backs in front of him or via floated balls to wing-backs pushing on. What changes when Leeds switch to three at the back is the position of potential passing outlets and the gaps Leeds can work through. Phillips is adept at coming short, taking up possession and trying to progress play from deep but he was missing through injury at Southampton and there was a battle throughout for Bielsa’s defence to link up with Klich and negate the pressure created by Southampton’s front two. Too often, Klich was cut off. By blocking the passing lanes and leaving him out on a limb, Southampton repeatedly dug the same hole for Leeds. The following graphics are from the earliest minutes of the game, with Pascal Struijk on the ball outside his box. He has options on either side but nothing in front of him so when he goes square to Diego Llorente and Southampton press, Llorente has no choice but to return the ball to Meslier. Another square pass to Cooper forces the captain to send the ball long or risk a turnover on the left-hand side. please log in to view this image please log in to view this image please log in to view this image Ten minutes later, Leeds were trapped by opposition markers again. Struijk plays backwards to Meslier, Meslier flights a pass out to Jamie Shackleton and although Klich comes short to offer himself to Llorente, he is shadowed by Southampton and there is nothing behind him in midfield for Llorente to look for with the second ball. Southampton corner Llorente, possession retreats to Meslier and this passage ends with Meslier, in the absence of good options, sending a high delivery into touch. please log in to view this image please log in to view this image please log in to view this image please log in to view this image It did not take long for Southampton to realise how well the high press was paying off. Far from pushing out, Struijk has been pinned back and is as deep as a sweeper. This next sequence, below, came with Hasenhuttl’s side starting to get on top. Struijk can only look for a lateral pass and though Llorente tries to drive possession to Klich with an awkward and strongly-hit pass, Klich has a hard job controlling it and is quickly chased towards his own box. Within seconds, Leeds had lost the ball and invited a shot from Nathan Redmond, which Meslier tipped wide. please log in to view this image please log in to view this image please log in to view this image An xG of 0.01 before half-time can be explained by the lack of quality possession Leeds were afforded. Their inability to keep their passing precise and combat Southampton’s game plan meant Bielsa’s side were hurried and reduced to mediocre distribution, suffering up front as a result. In the 23rd minute, Struijk is again faced with Southampton players in front of him so Klich drops in to try and help him. In the 3-3-1-3, though, Klich’s movement leaves no one in the gap beyond him and Meslier goes for a distant punt towards Tyler Roberts, which is won by Southampton. The knockdown gives Klich a 50-50 to compete for, contrary to how Bielsa wants Leeds to construct attacks. please log in to view this image please log in to view this image please log in to view this image please log in to view this image “Evidently our game didn’t look like the one we normally play,” Bielsa said and the first port of call against Wolverhampton Wanderers this weekend will be to reconnect the lines between his defence, his midfield and his attack. Those were strong against Watford three weeks ago and a measured performance in a 4-1-4-1 produced their first and only win of the Premier League season so far. Phillips was an active lynchpin, with 69 passes from start to finish, and Watford’s weak and disorganised press was nothing like Southampton’s disciplined model. Against an ever-present front two at St Mary’s, Leeds lacked the space to breathe. Wolves play with a single centre-forward and are unlikely to alter that system at Elland Road. Bielsa can revert to 4-1-4-1 and all being well, bring Phillips and Raphinha into the fold after injury and international duty respectively, taking Leeds back to what they know best with two of the players who make them tick most effectively. The formula is there if they can find it again.
You can also break it down on a match by match basis: https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/19/Show/England-Leeds (scroll down to the bottom)
Lifted, borrowed, carefully replicated... whichever, there is only going to be Doc with the time and inclination to read all of that, most of us have the attention span of Can't remember what I was going to say!
