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Transfer Rumours The Rumour Mill, summer 2021

Discussion in 'Norwich City' started by Walsh.i.am, Feb 26, 2021.

  1. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    You haven’t heard of Farke’s innovative 2-7-1 formation?
     
    #1161
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  2. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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    Billing might be off:

    McLean, Lees-Melou, Rupp, Gilmour and Sorensen, to fill 2 slots in the starting XI, although Sorensen may be required at CB.

    It's not exactly an embarrassment of riches is it? McLean was alright in the Prem last time but needed a better DM, Rupp had little impact. Sorensen, Lees-Melou and Gilmour look like good additions but are unproven, Sorensen we haven't seen as a DM in the Championship or pre-season, surely we can't be expecting him to play there?

    Central midfield was an area we seriously struggled last time, I think we need to take any opportunity to add quality there.

    I know it's not as simple as this, but if we were prepared to pay £10m for Ajer, I'd be a lot more comfortable with Yokuslu and Carter-Vickers in the squad for a similar fee.
     
    #1162
  3. carrowcanario

    carrowcanario Well-Known Member

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    Maybe Billing is concerned about competition to start if he joins us.
     
    #1163
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  4. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    My point was that with 4 CMs and one DM/CM, Paddy is saying we want another CM rather than a DM or even another DM/CM. I'd much rather have Yokuslu or a similar specialist DM than yet another CM unless we are going to DH's 2-7-1 formation.
     
    #1164
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  5. Robbie BB

    Robbie BB Well-Known Member

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    Can't think of anyone who wouldn't, Rick. Oh! Wait a minute ....... :emoticon-0138-think
     
    #1165
  6. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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    Watford now reportedly negotiating with Celta for Yokuslu. Can see that type of midfielder making even more sense for them than us, given his more limited passing game. Would still be a shame to see a reasonably priced DM go to a direct rival.
     
    #1166
  7. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    I really do think that this is a decision we could live to regret, even more so if we wait too long and fail to bring in a quality DM at all. The memory of Amadou keeps coming back to me.
     
    #1167
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  8. Robbie BB

    Robbie BB Well-Known Member

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    All the evidence is pointing to the fact that DF doesn't actually want a specialist DM. Put another way, he doesn't want the Leicester City version of N'Golo Kante, he wants the current Chelsea version, i.e. a player who has the defensive instincts and awareness of a specialist No.6 but allied to the creative, offensive instincts and awareness of a No.8. We saw this last season in the way in which, as the season progressed, Ollie Skipp was encouraged to develop a much more offensive interpretation of his role while, conversely, McLean was being encouraged to learn from Skipp and embrace a more DM-like defensive one. This concept has now been "formalised" as '"a double 6", the centre field equivalent of wingback as opposed to full back.
    This is all well and good if you have a pair of N'Golo Kantes (current Chelsea version), but we don't. We don't currently even have one, never mind two. Worse still. with Skipp gone, we don't even have a single N'Golo Kante (Leicester version), i.e. a genuine DM. And now, despite lip service to Ollie Skipp's crucial role last season in tightening up our defence, it appears that DF is electing to enter the EPL fray relying on perming 2 out of 3 or more CM/ACMs, "asked", in Lees-Melou's own words, "to play a little bit deeper". None of McLean, Gilmour, Lees-Melou or Billing (were he to come in) are specialist DMs with offensive flair. Gilmour is raw talent searching for his best position, the others CM/ACMs being shoe-horned into more defensive roles.
    There was a revealing Pink Un video recently in which DF drew lessons from our failed 2019--2020 campaign. He kept stressing the failure of our midfielders to contribute goals in the manner of the preceding Championship season. It wasn't the goals conceded that occupied his mind, it was the goals not scored. Whatever lessons have been learned, it appears the most important one is not among them.
     
    #1168
  9. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    The most important one, in your opinion.

    If we play a back three, then I am not sure we need a DM at all.

    And while I accept he’s untested, I don’t see why Sorensen doesn’t count as a specialist defensive midfielder, on the basis that he can double as a midfielder and a defender.

    Also, McClean grew considerably in his defensive role last season.

    Finally, the club has specifically said its summer transfer business is not done and one of the lessons they learnt is that transfer spending is not to be rushed, simply to get players in for pre-season - better to wait for the right players and accept they won’t be embedded quite so quickly.

    I will reserve my judgement for performances and structure on the pitch rather than backing Farke to fail now.
     
    #1169
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
  10. carrowcanario

    carrowcanario Well-Known Member

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    I think part of the problem is that some people don't understand one of the main benefits of the 4-2-3-1 formation, which is that it is very adaptable and can be used to support a very wide range of patterns of play. Depending what patterns of play we are intending to use will have an effect on all players, but particularly the full backs and the 6 / 8. So with the 4-2-3-1 system it is not possible to say the 6 / 8 needs to be a particular type of player based on the formation alone, you would need to know what patterns of play we are looking to play. This I would suggest is why the club seems to be looking for midfielders that can play in multi positions as there role will be based on the pattern of play we are deploying at any one time. Patterns of play will change numerous times during a game.
     
    #1170
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  11. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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    This is a really good discussion, even if we're having to speculate on intentions in the transfer market!

    In terms of lessons learned after 19/20, lack of midfield goals was certainly one. I think we only had 1-2 goals from central midfield last time around? Lees-Melou, Gilmour are perhaps a modest upgrade in terms of goal threat on Leitner and Trybull.

    In attacking midfield, Cantwell and Dowell had similar outputs this season to Hernandez and Stiepermann in 18/19, but I feel are more likely to progress and maintain more of a threat at a higher level. Buendia's assists have hopefully been traded for Rashica goals, we shall see!

    But the other midfield lesson was that players who excelled on physical metrics (pace, height, strength, stamina) did better, McLean being the example, whilst Leitner, Trybull, Vrancic struggled. I feel we've added a little in this area? I think, and this ties into the argument about adaptability in the 4-2-3-1, we previously had 3 central midfielders who excelled at one thing. Trybull cuts passing lanes and intercepts, Leitner has metronomic passing, Vrancic offered creativity. But if the game state didn't suit their skills, for example in transition, they were less effective. Equally, whilst good on the ball the lack of strength made them more susceptible to being levered off the ball. Hopefully our new signings are more well-rounded, so have more ways to influence the game, with the added physicality to stand up to opposition.

    We've obviously seen little so far, but if I needed a midfielder to make a goal-saving challenge, I'd rather have Lees-Melou or Gilmour than Trybull, Vrancic or Leitner making it. And equally, if a shooting opportunity opens up 20 yards out, I'd rather it falls to Lees-Melou or Gilmour than Trybull, Leitner or Tettey.

    The 4-2-3-1 can certainly be adaptable, but I guess my concern is that we thought we had the mix of strengths last time around to make that work, but still found Tettey to be our most effective option. Even if we don't want a Yokuslu/Tettey-like "Destroyer DM" in our starting XI each week, it's a nice option to drop in against stronger opposition, or bring on when defending a result. And an insurance policy if our mixture of midfielders appears lacking in collective defensive quality. Can Sorensen be that player? It's so hard to know when we've seen so little of him there, even in pre-season. It's certainly a gamble.

    In terms of a 3-4-2-1 without a DM, that hasn't really been the way mid/lower league teams have used it successfully in the Prem from what I can see? Brighton have Bissouma, Wolves have Neves, West Ham have Rice. They are more rounded players than that, but perhaps it's no coincidence that you couldn't buy any of them for less than £50m. If Farke can get Gilmour perfoming in that role like a £50m player, that might be his best work yet.
     
    #1171
  12. 1950canary

    1950canary Well-Known Member

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    Talking of Neves - Spurs are one of the Clubs said to after him. If they get him they might let Skipp come back for a PL season experience. Might be wishful thinking but who knows.
     
    #1172
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  13. zogean_king

    zogean_king Well-Known Member

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    That's the kind of optimism we need :)
     
    #1173
  14. WareCanary

    WareCanary Active Member

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    I cannot reveal my sources but I know that Skipp would rejoin us in a heartbeat if he's able to....
     
    #1174
  15. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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    An angle I haven't seen mentioned: In terms of overseas signings, our squad now is fundamentally our squad for the Liverpool game at the start of the season. There's no way we can sign someone, get them through quarantine, and into training with enough time for them to be involved.

    UK signings at least avoid the need to quarantine, so Carter-Vickers, Billing, etc could be ready.
     
    #1175
  16. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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  17. Robbie BB

    Robbie BB Well-Known Member

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    The DM issue is nothing to do with formations or changing patterns of play. Plenty of highly successful teams, better equipped than ours to take advantage of the adaptability of 4:2:3:1, nevertheless choose to include a specialist DM in their line up. The issue is simply about the value to the team, in terms of results, of having or not having such a player in the side.
     
    #1177
  18. carrowcanario

    carrowcanario Well-Known Member

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    So what you're saying is IN YOUR OPINION it doesn't matter what a team's formation or patterns of play are, a team must have a DM. Strange that you then go on to say that plenty of highly successful teams that play a 4-2-3-1 choose to have a DM, assumedly by that comment you are acknowledging that some don't choose that option. Why are you so entrenched in your view that the club must play the Robbie BB way, despite the fact that our tremendous success of recent years has come from playing in a different way.
     
    #1178
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2021
  19. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    I don’t get your point? If you recognise that some teams have a 4231 with specialist DMs and others don’t, why are you so adamant that we definitely need one irrespective of the views of Farke, the scouting team, etc?

    You can’t have it both ways.
     
    #1179
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  20. Golden Eadie 2

    Golden Eadie 2 Well-Known Member

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    He knows more/better than our professional management team.
     
    #1180

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