You make some fair points vim. I'll concede the Beckham point: true- none of the current bunch could lick his boots in terms of passion and commitment. England are currently about as passionate as a wet sponge, and it's probably been our biggest problem under Capello. My main point was that- to an extent unequalled by any other country- we have this worrying tendency to place the onus of success squarely onto one player's shoulders. Yes, that player may be enormously talented, but the pressure this entails (usually media-fed, especially by the likes of Phil McNulty, Hansen and Lawro) is often too much for the player to cope with, and they simply fold, leaving the team with no plan B. Take S.A for example. Our Plan A was clearly along the lines of: "leave it to Wayne, he'll do the job". And then, when it turned out that Wayne had forgotten to turn up, we had NO plan B. Nada. Nothing. The same can be said for Beckham under Sven. That penalty miss, bobble or no bobble, summed up what was an utterly indifferent and deflating tournament IMHO. Another problem- though you might slaughter me for this- i don't think Rooney or Beckham were ever as good as true international greats: Ronaldo (Brazil), Zidane, Baggio, Xavi, Iniesta, Bergkamp, etc etc. They were/are great players, but i rate them just short of being able to carry a pretty average team on their shoulders. Rooney reminded us why he can't last night (a player who gets sent off will logically find it quite hard carrying a team on his shoulders); Beckham (dead-ball skills aside) lacked the pace and strength to truly illuminate the stage of world football. Your point about Rooney not transferring his potential to international level is a good one. I think it only serves to make the problem worse. England are being brainwashed to place their hopes in the hands of a player who- after 3 major tournaments- is yet to deliver. Ho hum.
Life & Times - completely agree. I think my point about Beckham is relative to others that have been championed as the next English saviour. His example does suffer in comparison to those you mention, and there was that penalty miss, but he I still a better international than Rooney is, and perhaps ever will be. NB that is a surreal user name.
Beckham also, single-handedly ruined a tournament against Argentina some years earlier than Greece game, ironically in an act of petulance similar to Rooney.
Every player SHOULD have to earn his place - not just Rooney. Getting yourself sent off for being petulant and brainless in an important qualifying game, is just another sign of his ever increasing arrogance, and selfishness. If he can't, or won't, grow up. Then, yes, he should be discarded. Personally, I believe that both Welbeck, and Sturridge, have a bright future ahead of them - and Hopefully, for England, too.
as a welsh fan, i suppose i can give a outsiders view here but i'm genuinly shocked by some of the comments on this thread. vimhawk says rooney 'generally doesn't transfer his potential to international level'. he has played 70 odd games for england and scored just 28 goals, thats over 1 in 3. without rooney the england team is nothing, toothless. he is, by far englands most important player, thats why his sending off has caused such a reaction. he has performed for england at times, and other times he hasnt, name me one player who has consistently performed at a higher level than rooney. if you are pointing to crouch to lead the line then you can kiss goodbye to ever making it out of a group stage at a major tournament, are you serious? rooney at 50% is better than any other striker that england could name. who is his competition at the moment? zamora? bent? crouch? are you saying these players could unlock a defence and score the goals for the team at a championship? i have never understood the criticism people like beckham, lampard, owen etc get from the media, now rooney. rooney has 2 red cards in 70 odd games, now thats not the best disciplinary record but at the same time he is a full blooded player who never shirks a challenge, and as englands best player he will inevitably be targeted by opposition in terms of tough tackling and man marking. people like notsosmartspur epitomise the blame culture that people on forums have. single handedly ruined a tournament? give me a break. ignore the countless good games that beckham had and focus on the red card he received 13 years ago.
...yawn! and just what have these wonderful players and they're dazzling performances won us so far? fuk all, always the bridesmaids, get a grip! Argentina was a knockout game...down to 10 men and we went home...and you're trying to find a positive out of that!
If we're going to go with statistics, then Crouch has scored 22 goals in 42 games. That's a better average than Rooney, even when you ignore the amount of times that Crouch has come off the bench to boost those appearance stats. He's actually only made 19 starts, so he's scored more times than he's started games.
Swamp Edit this to read: "i have never understood the attention people like beckham, lampard, owen etc get from the media, now rooney." And we're on the same page... You're right- Rooney is by far the best option we have up front. The problem is that neither he, nor Beckham, nor Owen, nor Lampard, nor any other member of the golden generation was actually good enough to carry the hopes of the nation on their shoulders. That is why people get frustrated, b/c individual messiah-players are hyped up beyond reason, then fail to deliver time and again. And im afraid EVERYONE'S reaction to that silly red against Mont the other night was simply a venting of anger that if THIS is how our 'saviour' conducts himself, what hope do we have? How ironic that almost every INDIVIDUAL player in the Spain team would- if english- probably also be declared by the 3 wise men (Lawro, Hansen and Savage) as the messiah of the tournament. And yet, what is Spain's greatest strength by far? That their whole is greater than the sum of their parts. Their team game. England never truly had a team game. First it was an Owen game, then a Beckham game, now a Rooney game, and so on and so forth ad nauseum. Part of me longs for the days of Graham Turnip...at least then we didn't have any hopes, dreams or expectations to be crushed every single tournament... That is, unless watching Carlton Palmer try to defend made you suicidal...
Beckham did ruin the world cup vs Argentina (no guarantee we would have won if he hadn't been sent off mind you), and I hated him for it... but he redeemed himself to a great extent by making it his personal responsibility to qualify us for a different tournament. Somehow I don't see Rooney doing that. However I do see Rooney being picked whenever available, regardless of what he might bring to the team. I don't see him as the saviour, I see him as the symptom. And lets look at Crouch's stats again. Not necessarily the guy for Spurs but you can't argue with international stats like that. So we then had people arguing that Crouch doesn't score against the "better" teams (well I'm not sure that it was ever proven, or that other strikers did have any better record against these so called better teams) but what is sure is that in the last WC the team we picked couldn't score against anybody! So you have to have sympathy with him that he couldn't get a game despite his record and the team playing so badly.
Please explain why we also take the 'not quite right yet metatarsal brigade' to tournaments, like Beckham, wasting squad places and leaving fit players behind?
England only have two Players that would get into any National team, Ashley Cole and Rooney,so whatever we think of him England would have no hope without him,having said that we won't win the Euro Championship Anyway
This, not exactly incisive, posting seems to ignore the fact that Rooney can only be any good to England, IF he is actually on the pitch. Talk about missing the point
jumping on him when he is missing 2 games if he has played 70 odd times is harsh. you get players retiring from england left right and centre because of the stick they get, have they got the same treatment from withdrawing their services to their nation? people like scholes, carragher, foster etc.. hatricks in friendlies against jamaica spring to mind. theres not much point arguing my case to you if you endorse peter crouch as a player who can score the goals to get england to a quarter final or further of a major tournament.
The point I was making, which you still don't seem to have grasped; is that it was the stupidity of his dismissal that rankles. It was pointless, and petulant. It's not exactly the first time he's displayed this kind of childish behaviour, either. What I'm saying is, he needs to grow up - fast.
This has actually turned into quite a lively debate. I think Swamp, being Welsh, can't fully grasp the frustration felt by england fans as we watch the same stupid mistakes repeating themselves over and over again. Seriously, i think you could just cut n' paste every major tournament since euro 1996 (the last time we had a quality TEAM game) over eachother b/c they're all pretty much the same. Same build up. Same 'football's coming home' hype. Same staggering punch-drunk through the group stages to arrive- quite unintentionally- into a get-together of teams who are technically and tactically far superior to us. Same penalty shoot-out exit. And i think the point that Notso, NSIS and tots are trying to make is that the national team is caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, it follows the trend of the last decade of pinning all our hopes on one player's shoulders. And yet that one player- whilst undoubtedly a world class talent (more so than Beckham IMHO)- is still acting with the same immaturity and petulance as he was 8 years ago. And that is worrying. A question for you though Mr. Swamp: Our Gareth is probably (on his day) the single most talented member of the Wales team, by a clear distance (although Ramsey is looking like a good prospect for you). Is he under the same pressure and constant scrutiny as the likes of Beckham, Owen and Rooney? Is he expected by the welsh media to carry the team single handedly through qualification? Whilst the gulf in quality is noticeable, i think the english and welsh teams have this in common: A few outstanding individuals surrounded by above-average team mates. Im interested to know how the media there deals with this, as well as the fans' perspective...
Mr Postiga, must disagree with you slightly about falling through all of the most recent tournaments toward the inevitable penalty shoot out exit. Our "performance" in the last world cup was significantly worse than that! I would argue, if anything, we are not even nailed on for a penalty shoot out failure in the quarters now. But there's always a chance that a coach will end up with a reasonable team, perhaps by some fluke of injuries and suspensions, providing he's actually picked the right squad (which is unlikely anyway of course). Chances are of course that even then, as soon as the invincibles are available again they are back in the team, regardless of how the "cover" played. I remember when Capello was appointed, people were up in arms that the FA said (I believe I remember this right) he was "expected" to get England to the quarters. In fact Erikson was pilloried for his failures by doing just that of course. But Capello is worse, with is lack of basic English, lack of flexibility and downright lies when he said he would pick on form not prestige. I actually don't mind a foreign manager... providing I can understand what they are saying!
Couldn't have put it better myself. It hurts me to say it, but take Germany's performance in S.A as a great e.g of what england have been missing for years. I'm not talking about Loew's willingness to experiment and blood in the youngsters if and when necessary (quite the opposite of cappello). Im talking about the fact that if you compare Germany man-for-man to england, I honestly don't think on paper there's a difference as big as a 4-1 hiding. To put it another way, compare germany man-for-man to Spain and it becomes a joke. On paper the Spanish are FAR better that the hun and yet...there wasn't much to choose between them in S.A. What I'm getting it is: It seems that Germany realised that, not being in possession of a single, match-winning truly world class player, a plan B would be necessary. Yes, the likes of Ozil, Schweinsteiger and co. are good, but they certainly ain't Klinnsmann and Matthaus, for e.g. So what did Loew do? He created a system wherein the TEAM would play together as a whole. The result? Some of the most exciting and fluid football in the tournament. Instead of 10 men playing for one man who failed to turn up, you had 11 men playing as a cohesive unit and, despite not being as good as spain on paper, that really didn't matter b/c the hun came damn close to bettering them. So, when will england come to the realisation that we- more so than the jerry- haven't got 11 amazing players, and start to play them as a TEAM instead?
Every player scores the majority of their international goals against weaker teams. The majority of Messi's goals have come against teams like Venezuela and Ecuador. That also ignores the fact that Crouch doesn't even get picked against the better teams, so he doesn't have the opportunity to score. Crouch has also proven himself in European competitions, scoring 23 times in 55 appearances. Compare that to the players that he's in competition with and he's miles ahead. He's currently 6 goals behind Ian Rush at international level, having played 31 less games.
