I can't believe you won't admit it was lucky that that many players came through at the same time. In the nearly 20 years since, you haven't even 'produced' a player as good as Nicky Butt. Almost 2 decades and that hasn't even happened. Is Fergie a top class manager? Yes. Absolutely. Can he build a top side. Yes. Absolutely. Is he a massive part of United's success? Of course. Did he 'produce' that many many class players nearly simultaneously through some sort of masterstroke? pffft. He got lucky. Surely you can admit that. If it was some sort of genius he possessed, he would have given you at least one more class player in the following two decades. He hasn't even come close.
There is no luck about it. These players werent just automatically good. Potential was there as in all footballers but it was Fergie and the rest of the coaches who made them the players they became.
no one We had Fowler, Owen and Gerrard come through in a somewhat regular fashion. Why? We got lucky. Top class is born not made.
No its made, without doubt. You can have all the potential in the world but at the wrong club, the wrong coaching.... potential can be wasted easily. Takes alot of hard work to get it right. If it didnt then everyone would be top class.
we'll just have to agree to disagree I had this same argument over the years with Liverpool supporters who wondered why we hadn't produced another Owen or Fowler. We were supposedly a striker factory. They're still convinced we 'produced' them from some masterstroke of management, scouts and training. I told them they were nuts and mistaking luck for some repeatable process. Just like you haven't produced any class since then we haven't either. Because you don't produce class like that.
And you think that buying young talent and coaching them into the final product isn't good management? It's just damn luck that Ronaldo became the player he did at United. It's damn luck that Smalling has developed so much since he has been a Premier League player? It's pure luck that the likes of Welbeck and Cleverly did well at loan spells and now are developing their talent into results on the pitch? It's not all about talent, hard work is just as important.
Brown and O'Shea have both been as good as Butt and Phil Neville, and Fletcher wasn't far off. Brown was keeping Phil Neville out of the team as early as 2001. You seem to forget that Utd produce youth players all the time. As I said in the banter thread, since SAF joined United we have produced over 40 players who have played in the top flight of English football. Six of those came through in four years from 1991-1995, but it was coincidence that the best three were all discovered and attracted to the club at the same time, not luck. If you produce 40 top flight players in 25 years you are going to get at least some top class players simply as a random percentage of the ones you produce. But how would it be lucky that we had four midfielders and two full backs come through all at once, when we already had Roy Keane and Dennis Irwin there? If anything, it was unlucky that Butt and Phil came through when they did - had they emerged ten years later they might well have been playing in the midfield at the moment and on their way to becoming United legends rather than being sold on cos they had better players ahead of them at the time.
sorry swarbs not convincing my own never convinced me about our magic striker factory and you're not convincing me about anything other than it being a one off chance event at yours I've been of the same opinion for well over a decade and am still waiting for an argument that convinces me otherwise. I doubt it will ever happen to be honest.
I also think Butt never got the credit he deserved. Considering who started ahead of him it's not surprising he got lost in the shadow. Very good for England as well
These players are found by the club not the other way round. Therefore it is not luck but the result of hours and hours of hard work both scouting, training and nurturing these players.
Rapidly losing respect for you. What is this crap? Denying Dalglish is almost as daft as denying Fergie. I don't see any luck either side. Lame thread.
It was the type of response the quote deserved. I have said many times Dalglish is a good manager but have also said hes not in the same league as Fergie. No United fan is really saying Dalglish is ****, I may do to wind you liverpool fans up at times but thats all. I recognise that hes one of the best managers in the league, has a good track record, respected player and manager and a league title winner but to say he is somehow as good as Fergie is just silly. To then claim Fergies success is down to luck is madness, to say he got desperate....what???? It was a silly response but it was a silly thing to say in the first place.
I'm not convinced about your "striker factory" either. Mainly because producing two strikers in four years is not evidence of any sort of superior youth system. Producing 40 PL players over the past 25 years is evidence that the club is doing something right, after all if it was just luck then Liverpool and all other clubs would be able to point to a string of similar successes. And Brown and O'Shea never got the credit they deserved either. Brown in particular was very unlucky with injuries, snapping his cruciate ligaments three times throughout his career, the first one occurring when he was just 20. To be honest I'm struggling to see what your argument is. If you're claiming that top class players are only born not made, how do you explain the difference in success between players like Fowler and Giggs who were both born with similar levels of talent but one of which has been much better than the other. Natural talent makes a big difference, but so does training, selection and motivation. Ronaldo was not born the best player in the world, he only became the best player in the word after long years of learning and development at Utd. Likewise Messi was rejected by a string of clubs before Barca snapped him up and gave him the growth hormone treatment needed to combat his deficiency which was a massive natural handicap. I agree that great players need to be born with plenty of talent, but that alone isn't enough. As I said above, players like Jeffers, Morris, Fowler, Collymore and Le Tissier had the talent to be world class, but didn't always get the training, education or support from their clubs. They were still great players, but not world class. In contrast, players like Ronaldo, Giggs, Scholes, Gerrard, Beckham, Xavi, Messi and Iniesta had the talent and also got the training, education and support and thus have all been world class greats in their career. A lot of that is down to natural talent and characteristics, but a lot of it is down to the club.
To say that Dalglish is a good manager is just plain silly. He struck lucky with Blackburn because Jack Walker was at the time financing his buys at a huge rate. On top of it, he had a good assistant who did most of the work in identifying and coaching good players. At the scousers he continued the work of previous managers with their old players.... He was rubbish at Newcastle and at Celtic. His performance there proved that when the going gets tough he is found wanting. He is simply not very good...
not sure I'd class Giggs and Beckham as world class greats. Top players, but never really in the running for best player or best in their positions. I'd put Rio in from your though. Schmeichel as well.
