In the great realm of things, asking a Manchester 'fan' like eatcustard to read that much text without pictures is like expecting a room full of chimps with typewriters to run out a copy of the complete works of Shakespeare - it'll happen in a Parallel universe somewhere, but don't hold your breath... As for getting a reply...
Look forward to constructive assessments - will ignore cyberpap and deconstruct bad or inaccurate argument - happy to concede well-made points... But, as I said, won't hold me breath...
Giggs: His autobiography. Also http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/13507115.stm; http://menmedia.co.uk/salfordadvertiser/news/s/1103484_freedom_honour_for_ryan_giggs Becks: http://www.soccerandequipment.com/david-beckham-biography.html (Yes, not the most reliable source. I read the whole story including the conversation with his parents in a newspaper back in 1990 something, but it's obviously not been digitised) http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/engla...ham-hails-father-figure-sir-alex-ferguson-for Scholes: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/article1111455.ece (sorry for the S*n, can't find any other online source) Also Fletcher, who SAF offered to let live with him whilst he was settling in http://www.freewebs.com/darrenfletcher/aboutdarrenfletcher.htm And SAF's general philosophy: http://www.manutd.com/en/Players-An...-harrison-on-current-youth-crop.aspx?pageNo=1 Utd youth graduates under SAF to have played at least one season of top flight football: 1. Mark Robins (Utd, Norwich, Leicester) 2. Giggs 3. Beckham 4. Butt 5. Scholes 6. Neville 7. Neville 8. Brown 9. O'Shea 10. Fletcher 11. Evans 12. Cleverley 13. Welbeck 14. Richardson (Utd and Sunderland) 15. Mulryne (Utd and Norwich) 16. Robbie Savage 17. Keith Gillespie 18. Bardsley (Sunderland) 19. Stewart (Hibs and Hearts) 20. Cathcart (Blackpool) 21. David Healy 22. Darron Gibson 23. Shaun Goater 24. Jonathon Spector (West Ham) 25. Paul McShane (Hull) 26. Ryan Shawcross (Stoke) 27. Lee Martin (Utd and Celtic) 28. David Jones (Wolves) 29. Jon Macken (Man City) 30. Ben Thornley (Aberdeen) 31. John Curtis (Blackburn) 32. Danny Higginbotham 33. Jonathan Greening (Boro and West Brom) 34. Ronnie Wallwork (West Brom) 35. John Rankin (Hibs) 36. Danny Pugh (Stoke) 37. Danny Simpson (Newcastle) 38. Luke Chadwick (West Ham) 39. Sylvain Ebanks-Blake (Wolves) 40. Chris Eagles (Burnley and Bolton) 41. Fraizer Campbell (Hull, Spurs and Sunderland) 42. Russell Beardsmore Like I said in another thread, it's more serendipity than outright luck. If you have a system that produces PL quality players as regularly as Utd's, eventually some of the players that emerge will be hugely talented. If you are turning relatively untalented players like some of the ones I mentioned into players that can perform in the top division, then you will turn really talented players into world class players. Fowler is actually a great example - he had natural goalscoring talent to compare to the natural midfield talents of Becks, Scholes and Giggs. But, whether through mismanagement or just poor attitude, he failed to become a world class player and spent what should have been the best years of his career playing **** for City. Compare that to the Utd three who are some of the most respected players on the field (if not always off it )
I'd have thought a Liverpool fan of all people would recognise the importance of net spend. Over that period Utd had a negative net spend of around £1.2 million due to the sales of Hughes for £1,500,000, Ince for £7,000,000, Gillespie for £1,000,000, Dublin for £2,000,000 and Robins and Webb for £800,000 each. So Dalglish outspent Utd by around £20 million, pretty impressive given the UK transfer record at the time was £7 million. So that would be the equivalent of outspending Utd by around £150 million today. Pretty much the same as Chelsea or City then... Surely a truly great manager wouldn't have made that move? He would have stuck it out and tried to build another successful team, or at least defend his title? After all, the great thing about managers like Shankly and Busby wasn't the number of trophies they won, but the legacy they built for their clubs.
They just dont understand. Its actually insulting that a run of the mill manager like Dalglish even gets mentioned in the same breath as fergie. Its like comparing Fergie to Dalglish as players. You just wouldnt as one is far superior to the other. Dalglish has never built a club. Building a team is one thing but building a club. From the inside out. Only a few have ever done that. You could count them on one hand. Fergie Busby Shankley Wenger
please log in to view this image A much better look at things. Oh look, guess whos spent the most per point. This includes only transfer fees and wages. Sporting Intelligence’s formula: “To reach our figures we began by looking at wage bills at each of the 20 football clubs (as opposed to their parent companies) for the most recent season available, 209-10. So for Bolton, for example, the accounts of Bolton Wanderers Football & Athletic Company Limited, as opposed to Burnden Leisure, which also owns a hotel. For Liverpool, it was the Liverpool Football Club and Athletic Grounds Limited, not the parent company, and so on. “The specific figures we used from each set of accounts was ‘Wages and salaries’ (not the headline total wage bill, which includes social security payments by clubs but not to staff). In Liverpool’s case, the relevant number was £108.549m, for example, while at Birmingham it was £32.3m, and so on. “Next we adjusted the 2009-10 numbers for wage inflation (in all cases) and for promotion (in the cases of Newcastle, West Brom and Blackpool, whose wage bills will naturally have increased to a significant extent from 2009-10 in the Championship). And then we divided the total by the number of points. These wages include pay for all players, managers, coaches, back-up staff and other FC staff. As a like-for-like comparison, it’s probably as close to accurate as we can get short of actually having 2010-11’s numbers.”
Fowler spend his prime at Liverpool. And he scored 120 goals in 236 appearances. Had he done that at United he'd be called world class. Because he'd have medals with the goals. But he did it in a side that wasn't title-worthy (which is even more impressive TBH) so he's not. At the end of the day it's not about talent or personal acheivements, perception is based around the medal count of the club. Which I disagree with but that's just how it goes.
I'm quite franky amazed you lot are still all hammering away at each other. first of all those stats are rubbish as some clubs get one year to spend moeny and some get 15 years... utter rot. second of all the mancs insulting kenny are doing so merely to wind up... which is fair enough cos thats just what goes on. saying he neve rbuilt a club on the one hand while the accusing him of spedning to get blacknurn where they won a league o nthe other.... well lets just say skimming this article just makes me laugh at the lot of you.
"1. Mark Robins" Isn't that the player that Fergie never thanked for saving his bacon (face) by scoring the FA Cup winner to keep him in a job? What class
An intelligible answer and good points - eatmustard should read and learn! Net spend is an important feature, but so is the starting point - Kenny took a team 20 places lower than United and made them Premier League Champions. Yes, the net spend is important, but neglecting the start point is to effectively deny any different in quality of the two sides inherited. And in the two years before Alex took over, United had been splashing the cash around - Bryan Robson was an English record signing, don't forget. The nucleus of a good team was being mismanaged by Ron Atkinson before then. As for the second point, Kenny moved 'upstairs' having achieved the title. You could argue that he didn't build a club, just a team, but why did the successor managers not do better with the same materials - Shearer and Sutton were 26 and 22 respectively, still had years ahead of them, and the same point could be made throughout the team - they weren't old and in need of a rebuild, they just needed a manager to handle them correctly and use appropriate tactics. You ask why he didn't stick it out as the manager? I guess you should read his book - 'My Liverpool Home' Oh, you don't want to put you hand in your pocket (stop sniggering eatmustard - I know what your kind do then - pocket billiards!) and pay for it? I'll help you out, shall I? He was eyeing up a return to Anfield. His heart wasn't in it at Ewood Park, and since 1994 he was hoping to get back to Anfield. Frankly, he should never have left, but that's by the by now. He wanted to be back home. So there is the difference - Alex was at the Biggest Club in his career, and barring a move to Real or AC Milan, he wasn't going to find a bigger job anywhere (I didn't mention us, because he was NEVER going to be offered that job after being at OT). He had no emotional attachment to any other club that was bigger than Manchester. Kenny, by comparison, had the attachment to Anfield, and it was where his heart lay. He felt that by walking away at the time he did, and I fully understand why he did it and respect that, he'd made a huge mistake and in retrospect, no job was going to be the same. There were no bigger clubs to manage that would have that emotional draw. When your heart isn't in a job, and you're comfortably well off, you can do a few hours one day per week and make a handsome amount of money (punditry - money for old players), why slog your guts out for a job or company (or team) you don;t love, that doesn't inspire you? Coming back to Anfield gives him the opportunity to build the legacy. That his work at Blackburn was squandered by the coaches that followed is undeniable - with money, Hodgson and Harford still couldn't maintain even Premier League status. As I said, Newcastle and Celtic weren't even opportunities to manage clubs, his feet were no sooner under the table than a twitchy, unrealistic board were getting shot of him. Will he build a legacy at Anfield - watch this space...
Your fear is apparent - SirExLax is 70 this year, Kenny is only 60. SirExLax will retire - who will be there to squander his legacy? Mourinho perhaps? Roy 'respected across Europe like Sir Alex' Hodgson? Kenny will still be managing Liverpool...
hope they do it again for 2011-12, as we'll be able to see not how it was under the tyranny of Statler & Waldorf, but under the enlightened administration of NESV
Kenny will retire first. Whats to fear though? Fergies record over Dalglish is about as 1 sides as you can get. Fergies lost 5 times to Dalglish or something mad like that. Dalglish hasnt finished above Fergie since 95. 17 years come May. Fair enough Dalglish wasnt in a job but I doubt it would of changed much.
Very well said, Saint. By the way, revisit the 'Tumbleweed' thread. There's More information on that Director of Quality job.
