Bit of a left field debate for everyone this morning as I have my Earl Grey and Croissants. Consider the statement and the facts. Both clubs have won **** all for decades. Both clubs have been **** on from a great height for longer than I can remember. Both have had many humiliating seasons (us probably more in recent years) and both have suffered relegation's. We have one FA Cup win between us in nearly 40 years and its 56 years since the mags won a recognised trophy. However, both clubs have fans whose loyalty and passion is matched nowhere in the world. That we can both muster 40,000/50,000 fans after the countless decades of rubbish and utter garbage served up to us is absolutely incredible. No other club in Europe could attract this many fans after so long being masters of failure. Granted, the mags have enjoyed some golden moments in the last 20 years, more so than ourselves but the trophy cabinets of both clubs have more cobwebs than silver polish adorning them. So, my argument is simple. If we could get the investment right; the right manager and a few good players, both clubs could be the biggest ones in the world. Imagine how many fans would go to both clubs if they were to win an FA Cup; a League Cup or the ultimate prize in the EPL Championship? Arsenals 60,000 would be totally eclipsed imo and both NE clubs could piss 70,000 to watch the kind of football Man Utd fans have enjoyed for nearly 25 years. Barcelona and Real Madrid enjoy good support but then with that team in Barca, you would need a 100,000 + stadium in NE1 or SR1. My question is why have both clubs so massively under achieved for so long, given that again imo, we both have by far and away the best fans in the whole of the nation. No other club in Britain has the potential to embrace success more than us and the mags and yet we are both hapless at it. Why is this? Discuss!
Glamour and Geography. We are not a glamorous club and if having a choice of playing in London or Sunderland, where would you choose ? I tend to agree with what you are saying though, if a mega rich arab bought us, I reckon we could literally take off.
My problem with that theory though, the glamour bit, is what makes Manchester glamorous? Or Liverpool? Manchester isn't exactly the Cote d'azur is it and Liverpool is far from being a fabulously beautiful city. Both **** holes if you ask me? All the football clubs have tradition but it wasnt always thus. Back in 50's/60's Liverpool were far form the glamour club and it was the Busby Babes that made Man Utd into the club it was today and the Munich disaster that endeared them to a generation. It isn't the area of Salford or the Dockland that attracts footballers is it? IN the NE you have a large cosmopolitan city in Newcastle, a developing now city in Sunderland (slowly but surely) and one of the most beautiful and picturesque city's in Britain in Durham. The scenery and landscape in the NE is 2nd to none, the quality of air and the standard of living is relatively modest. Our beaches are the best in the country. We are a warm and friendly people (always voted the most popular accents around the nation) and space is something we have in abundance. What I find amazing is that despite all the money that has poured into football recently, both clubs have been left standing a bit. Okay Ashley has a few bob and Ellis isn't ready to claim housing benefit anytime soon but neither are going to invest £100m in players imo. Were they to do so, with the right managers in place of course, either club could easily become a dominant force in English football imo and fill a 70,000, 80,000 stadium with ease. Why hasn't it happened though and more to the point, will it ever?
"Earl Grey and Croissants" Posh twat... I agree Cest the potential is in the North East for both clubs to be giants. It's got little to do with geography IMO, that's just a convenient excuse. Anywhere in England is less than one hours flight by private jet from the bright lights and they don't have to check in two hours before like us mere mortals. Money, investment...That's the answer. Look what happened up the road when John Hall actually flashed the cash. Suddenly Newcastle had a team full of superstars which very, very nearly took the league.
Join the two teams together to have one huge north east team, how massive would that be? So what would we call this team - Sundercastle, Newderland..........Glory awaits!
Sunderland upon Newcastle AFC? Lol Cyprus. Me posh? Nah, I still drink of earl grey out of the saucer and lick me plate after the croissants. The servants go ****ing mad mind. Lol
I am not convinced about this geography thing. The biggest players go where the money is..simple. No body will ever convice my Samuel E'to went to Anzhi Makhachkala for the bright lights. restaurants, life style etc.
I hear Gyan moved for the quality of the sand. Much better for building castles than Seaburn apparently.
That's what I thought. I think the twat moved to that geographical footballing hotbed for money. I could be wrong mind.
No, in terms of being picturesque, neither Liverpool nor Manchester are great. Both Liverpool and Everton were second division clubs from a second division city in the 1950s. In fact, the glamour club from the N.W. in those days was undoubtedly Blackpool - Stanley Matthews, Stan Mortensen, Harry Johnston &co. But in the '60s, Liverpool had The Beatles - they really put Liverpool 'on the map'. Shankly and Paisley compounded it by improving the team. And as the trophies rolled in, the excitement of Liverpool was permanently established. Manchester was a little bit different - the Munich air disaster did wonders for their global recognition. The problem with that was it was hardly an exciting image, was it? And then United found a kid called Best! It changed everything. The N.E., I think, still suffers to some extent from 'The Jarrow March' image. In the years of heavy industry, people didn't find pits and shipyards objectionable. On the contrary, they were symbols of Britain's wealth. The two teams produced plenty of glamour - Milburn and Shackleton attracted attention everywhere. And players were pleased to come here. But when the years of heavy industry were over, it was no longer the case. We began to be seen as mucky, grimey places, and, as the two teams turned in grimey performances, the attraction of the N.E. wore off. I think we're still stuck with that image really. Second rate teams from a filthy, smokey area. All the blokes wear flat caps and all the women have pinnies on - hardly night club style, is it? Who wants to go up there? Yuk.
You can think up all the excuses in the world why people dont move to these two clubs (geography etc etc). The only way you're going to attract top players is by paying top dollar. Until our clubs start shelling out 100,000 a week for players, your not gonna compete with the big boys. Who wants it that way though? I personally would not want some sheik owning NUFC, ripping the soul out the club and replacing it with mercenary footballers who would jump ship at the first opportunity to earn more. What Man City are doing is basically playing footy manager with the cheats on.
Interesting outlook there Cest. I have to agree. Although we did nearly win the league when we flashed the cash back in the mid 90's. I think money is the common denominator. Until both you and ourselves flash the money, we will forever be trailing behind the "big boys." Thing is though, I do not want my club to be bought out like that. Our soul is already ripped apart by Fat Mike and I could not bear to see it broken anymore by some big spending Arab. True, I would love all the glory and trophies but you cannot beat the uncertainty of winning and the fact it makes my weekend complete when we do. Perhaps this is another bog downfall for us. I am certain both SAFC and NUFC feel the same was as I do/
One thing I think our teams have lacked in the past is vision. Having a clear direction and banner for all involved in the club to flock around. Such visions come from strong personalities and the teams already mentioned had those in Busby, Shankley and also Clough and in recent times Ferguson and Wenger. They instilled an ethos at their clubs on how the game will be played and how they will achieve that and they pursued it ruthlessly to achieve it. At Newcastle I would say we had that in the 90s with Keegan until he lost his bottle and again with Robson before the rug was pulled out from under his feet. I would say on too many occasions we have had Chairmen and managers who have been sucked into short-term gains rather than looking to the future and encouraging steady growth and expansion. The scary thing is I actually think the person at our club who has the vision for us is Ashley. Our vision as has been talked about for a number of years - young players with determination, costing very little. He has tagged on to that a manager who seemingly wishes to play an attractive passing game and quotes from the squad is a desire to grow as a squad over a number of years and push the team forward. It is hard to argue against us not having a vision; how else do you suggest a newly promoted team with an oaf of an owner has persuaded players like Ben Arfa and Cabaye to give up European football to play for us. As for Sunderland, I wont pretend to be an expert but I do not believe Bruce has a grand vision; the relatively average signings made during the summer backs this up and unfortunately I don’t believe the board have provided him a structure to work too (all an outsiders opinion looking in). For us I believe we can go places with our vision but it may have to happen quickly before the big boys come in with large sums of money for our players or before Ashley has another brain freeze and does some new horrendous gaffe. Can we win the league in the foreseeable future, no. Can we win a cup or too and challenge for Europe in the foreseeable future, yes, most definitely.
"The standard of living is modest" - do you think that matters to a player earning even £5,000 a week? Let alone £200,000 plus! "A cosmopolitan city" - players don't have to live in the city though do they; they can live wherever they want. It's not as if money is an issue, to them or their clubs. A player could live in Penzance and fly to the North-East every day, and it would cost them less proportionally than it does for you to drive to work or catch the bus. "Beautiful area" - That's certainly true, North-East England and Yorkshire are certainly naturally beautiful, but again, do you think that's a priority for the modern footballer? I don't. "The beaches are the best in the country" - Ever been to Cornwall? "We are warm and friendly" - As are all Northern folk. But a Premier League footballer is far too detached from normality that I doubt he'd care to ever speak to a Geordie, Mackem, Inuit or Martian.
Good thread - especially over croissants and bacon butties. As already mentioned it is money that gets teams to the top. If a gazzillionaire came to either club, bought the quality, we would be champions of Europe/Premier League champions etc - we see it time and again - Blackburn anyone...and that was with crowds of less than 30k. It would be very interesting as to where we would play - South Tyneside - our team name Tyne & Wear FC - colours black n red stripes - uniting two fantastic cities of Newcastle & Sunderland - it will never happen!
