He's not trusting them to do anything. He's not in a position to affect it. If he says that he wants an extension, then the press will use that to slag him off for being a disruptive remainer. Saying that he wants them to get a deal and, as their ****ty slogan said, Get Brexit Done, is the only sensible approach. If the Tories don't get a deal, then it's on them. If they ask for an extension, then it's on them. It's not only political suicide for him to stick his oar in, it also wouldn't do a single thing.
So he should just give in? That's not being opposition, is it? This is something Starmer has been getting wrong a lot lately: his approach of trying to not rock the boat with English voters (a courtesy he doesn't extend to Scotland) is doomed to fail one way or another If he doesn't want to be "controversial" in the eyes of Daily Mail readers, he doesn't understand that the second an election is called the Sun, Mail, Express, and Telegraph will splash every speck of dirt they have (and plenty they made up) on their front pages because of the rosette he's wearing as happened to Kinnock, Brown and Milliband If he's trying to not alienate the former Red Wall seats by refusing to have a position, he's alienating the voters in London who are looking for Opposition instead of abstention If he's trying to avoid being accused of politicising the latest **** up in a terrifyingly long list of Covid **** ups, the fact is he isn't doing that: he'd be asking for an outbreak of some common ****ing sense, because it's no good supporting someone leading a nature hike up Mt Saint Helens if everything in a five mile radius is on fire, sometimes you have to say that going ahead as planned is going to get everyone killed And this is the problem: he isn't making the Tories sit in the mess they made, he's letting them make a mess we'll sit in while they don't have to because they already got their money out of the country so it doesn't matter at all to them
Absolutely right. There's nothing he can say that'll do him, his party or the country as a whole, any good. We're going head first into this madness and it cannot be stopped now Boris is digging himself a nice deep hole. Starmer doesn't need to give the gutter press an opportunity to deflect from the forthcoming apocalypse. He just needs to be ready to offer a sensible alternative when enough people are ready to listen.
He's not alienating anyone. The Corbyn loyalists are ****ting on everything that he does or doesn't do because they only care about one thing. They want an endless party of Jeremy in opposition and a Thousand Year Tory Reich, so that they can bleat online about ideological purity. I'd prefer somebody to try and get elected and in order to do that, they need to distance themselves from his toxic brand.
He is, though. Just ask anyone north of the border for a start. Or are they all Corbyn loyalists too? More than anything else, his latest abstention really shows a lack of nous, because think about it - If he asks for the transition period to be extended and the Tories agree, then it would be a win for him - If he asks for the transition period to be extended and the Tories disagree, then when it blows up in their faces nobody can pin it on him This is basic stuff, and Starmer's not getting it. By ruling out asking for an extension, he's actively getting the **** on himself because he is in a position to ask yet said nothing, all because he doesn't want the Daily Mail to say mean things about him, and frankly that's cowardly because he's shying away from having anything that could be considered a position, and how's that going to appeal to undecided voters? What really sums it up is how the walking thumbs are bellowing incoherently at Andy Burnham precisely because he defies the Tories, which is what the Leader of the Opposition should be getting because if you're not pissing off the people who won't ever vote for you anyway what's the point of being there?
Scotland's gone. The Tories have seen to that and the SNP killed Labour up there forever. None of that is on Starmer and even suggesting as much is silly. It wouldn't be a win if he asks for an extension and they agree to it, he'd just end up shouldering the blame for it. He shouldn't be touching Brexit right now. Let them do what they're going to do, as he literally can't affect it anyway. Burnham's getting attacked in the same way that Khan is. The Tories defund everything, then blame the Labour mayor or local MP when it ****s up. Opposition shouldn't just be about taking stances on every issue, though. Picking battles is something that Corbyn never learned and he's put us in this position because of it. The only time that he didn't jump in with both feet was Brexit and his attempted fence sitting was utterly devastating. He doesn't understand politics and his cultists want more of the same, forever.
So your suggestion is to give up? Again? While also trying to suggest that I'm blaming Starmer for this, as opposed to him alienating any Scottish voters who happen to be registered in constituencies south of the border? Asking for an extension and the Tories agreeing would be a win, simply because he had the government change tack - and considering the present situation, we absolutely need somebody to do that because the only other body who can make the government change tack is air traffic control in Switzerland telling their plane to turn around when they go to visit their money He most certainly, absolutely should be touching Jonestown now, because when we're looking down the barrel of No Deal and he does the square root of bugger all, that is not going to appeal to voters, is it? Imagine how that would look on the election trail "What did you do to try and keep us in the EU?" "Say we didn't need to extend the transition period, even when there were lorries backed up in Kent when Tier 4 struck" That's not exactly a winning soundbite, is it? Yes, Burnham's getting attacked, by people who would never vote Labour, when he speaks out against Tory policy Yes, Khan's getting attacked, by people who would never vote Labour and/or for somebody named "Khan", when he speaks out against Tory policy Starmer's not getting attacked, because he doesn't speak out against Tory policy...except by the people attacking him for not speaking out against Tory policy, and as much as you keep saying it, it's not by Corbyn loyalists as there's plenty of SNP and Plaid Cymru supporters asking what the hell the point of him is if he's so scared of rocking the boat he still has one foot planted firmly on the shore Of course Labour shouldn't be fighting every single issue, but you know the ones they should be fighting? The big ones, for example the Tories ploughing ahead with Jonestown at a point when any sane or rational human being will have noticed we've hit the third wave of a pandemic they've made significantly worse by their ineptitude so if they could stop tubthumping about ****ing fish for five minutes and give it a rest already and actually drag us an inch, just an inch, out of the bullshit they've dumped us in for the last four years that would be greatly appreciated That's two big issues right there, and Starmer's not touching either. That is what is so infuriating, because if he isn't touching either of those, what is he going to bother with? And the fact is, the status quo warriors picking battles is why we're here. Four years of knifing Corbyn in the back while the Grauniad giving so much time and space to people doing the knifing, all to be rewarded with a spot in the shadow cabinet when Starmer got his feet under the desk. Six months of Jo Swinson being deluded enough to think she'd have a chance of winning the election so instead of working with Labour she actively worked against them and knew what she was doing when parachuting ex-Independent Change Group UK Ltd MPs into marginal seats. Ed Miliband joining the Better Together campaign, which did wonders for Labour's support in Scotland...and yet the response to all that is "...but Corbyn!", which is what the Daily Mail were saying every time the last three Tory PMs ****ed something up, now is a battle cry for Starmerites in the face of any criticism without seeing the irony
I haven't suggested giving up, at all. I'm suggesting realism. What's Labour's path to victory in Scotland? Starmer wouldn't be given any credit for the government changing direction. Quite the opposite. They'd be lumped in with the current flip-flopping and seen as having no will to do anything. We're not staying in the EU, as we've already left. The only options are a deal or No Deal, which is a disaster. There's only one thing to push for and anything else is both damaging and a waste of breath. The end of your reply simply demonstrates what I've been talking about. Corbyn was betrayed, so now his followers must betray in kind. The Cult of Jeremy must live on and lay waste to the opposition, ensuring perpetual Tory rule until the end of time. Great. That will help. It's accelerationist nonsense that hopes for some sort of phoenix moment from Britain in ashes. It's not going to happen. Corbyn was and is a total vote drainer. He needs to retire and disappear for the good of everyone. He won't, of course. He'll continue to prop up the Tories and be a useful idiot.
I thought the Nazis lost the war? https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/priti-patel-plans-dump-300-23194180
I honestly couldn't tell you what Starmer's path to victory is in Scotland. Not because I don't know, or because it's complex, but because Starmer revealed his bold new strategy yesterday which consists of roping in Gordon Brown to appeal to Scottish voters while repeatedly using words such as "separatism", "separation" and "separatist" when discussing the SNP while promoting the Union, a Union which Scots are particularly ****ed off with these days as Scots voted 62% in favour of Remain yet the noisy neighbours are dragging them out of the EU in the name of that same Union after David Cameron promised that would never happen What the end of my reply clearly stated was people sitting in the middle of the road are what's got us into this position, and it predates Corbyn as Ed Miliband's one-two of supporting Better Together in 2014 followed by a stance of keeping austerity but only 75% of it for the 2015 election is what lost Scotland, or if you prefer is what handed Scotland to the SNP The same can be said for Labour, as they continually have two modes, so the same pattern repeats 1.) Labour 2.) Tory Lite The centrists want us all to believe that Tory Lite is the path to success and constantly bring up Tony Bliar as the shining example of this - yet for some reason they always overlook the likes of Neil Kinnock or Ed Milliband as leaders on a Tory Lite platform (one lighter than the other, to be diplomatic...) and what happened? Their respective legacies are falling over on Brighton Beach and eating a bacon sandwich, and what is Bliar's legacy exactly? An illegal war, student debt, and taking the safe seats in the north and in Scotland for granted to appeal to voters in the south, both of which have blown up in Labour's face in the last decade, yet the centrists keep saying "...but he won three elections!" while neglecting to say he had a huge mandate and did **** all with it And the taking the Red Wall for granted goes back further than that, for example Frank Field was parachuted into Birkenhead in 1979 by James Callaghan even though the local party had chosen a different candidate, and for the next forty years he was avoiding MP surgeries unless there was an election campaign on (in no small part as, for a large chunk of that time, he didn't live anywhere near the Wirral) and the locals were holding their noses when voting Labour for nine successive elections until he flounced out the party Why do I bring this up? Because the same process keeps happening, for example Oona King was parachuted into the newly-created Bethnal Green & Bow (which was previously a Labour safe seat in the 70s) by Bliar, never deigned to do MP surgeries...and lost the seat in 2005, just as there's numerous people parachuted into seats by Brown whose main contribution to British politics is a party that had a shorter lifespan than the SDP Those are the useful idiots as they're little more than space occupiers who get elected every few years and do nothing else, which happens in every party and not just Labour, but the issue with Labour is those space occupiers tend to take their constituents just that little bit too much for granted and all they really show is that there's a reason why they have to name political parties on ballot papers because otherwise the Christian Democrats might suddenly win a few seats because people can't remember the name of their local MP as they never see them, and that's where apathy and malaise set in pretty quickly
Not Starmer. Labour. What was Corbyn's? What would another leader going forward do to win back Scotland?
Starmer, nor Labour. Starmer. And since you're once again responding to criticism of Starmer with "...but Corbyn!!!" even after I have pointed out the clear issue with the optics, let me tell you what Corbyn's position on Scotland was - Labour would not back the SNP having an independence referendum in 2020 - If the SNP won the 2021 Scottish elections, Labour's position could change Clearly the word "could" is doing a hell of a lot of legwork there, and the initial position of not supporting a second referendum in the first term of a Labour government was revised to the position of maybe some point between 2021-4 (again, the weasel words are doing some hefty legwork there) there is a potential carrot there, while Starmer's position is just the stick
You're just completely avoiding the question. Corbyn didn't win back Scotland and you seem to think that it's possible, but can't give any details as to how. Whatever you think of the previous position, it clearly didn't work. What would?
You asked what Corbyn's position was, I answered it The one thing that would've kept Labour onside in Scotland in 2015 would have been a pledge to invest in infrastructure, which is the exact opposite of what their position was because instead the pledge nationwide was "Austerity, but not quite as much" The reason I bring this up is because in 2019 Corbyn was pledging infrastructure investment in Scotland, but the difference was between 2015 and 2019 some Etonian berk threw a grenade into the middle of all political debate in Scotland so the agenda has been on independence first and foremost. As a result there's two quick fixes that would get Labour a foothold in Scotland once again: sanction indyref2, or suspend Jonestown This is the flaw with Corbyn's position in 2019, because while there was a promise of a carrot the promise wasn't a tangible thing. What would have played better if if he stuck to his position from 2016-17 of Remain & Reform, which did see Labour win a handful of seats back in the 2017 election, but what ultimately ****ed that one up was the party voting in favour of a second referendum in 2018 yet while Corbyn wanted a second vote to include whatever deal we had with the EU on the ballot so there were three options, but that was sunk in the space of an afternoon in early 2019 by a bunch of abstentions - and that's not hyperbole Kenneth Clarke's bill: lost by three votes Voted against: Ronnie Campbell, Stephen Hepburn, Kate Hoey, John Mann, Siobhain McDonagh, Anna McMorrin, Owen Smith, Jo Stevens, Graham Stringer, Paul Williams, plus the eight ex-Labour TIG members Abstained: David Lammy, Wes Streeting, Daniel Zeichner Nick Boles' bill: lost by 21 votes Voted against: Tonia Antoniazzi, Kevin Barron, Ronnie Campbell, Sarah Champion, Rosie Cooper, Caroline Flint, Yvonne Fovargue, Stephen Hepburn, Mike Hill, Kate Hoey, Emma Lewell-Buck, John Mann, Siobhain McDonagh, Anna McMorrin, Grahame Morris, Ruth Smeeth, Laura Smith, Owen Smith, Gareth Snell, John Spellar, Jo Stevens, Graham Stringer, Derek Twigg, Paul Williams, Daniel Zeichner, plus the eight ex-Labour TIG members Abstained: Debbie Abrahams, Ann Clwyd, Mary Creagh, Janet Daby, Geraint Davies, Stephen Doughty, Rosie Duffield, Julie Elliott, Louise Ellman, Jim Fitzpatrick, Helen Hayes, Meg Hillier, Margaret Hodge, Darren Jones, Graham P Jones, Kevan Jones, Susan Elan Jones, Liz Kendall, Ged Killen, David Lammy, Kerry McCarthy, Catherine McKinnell, Madeleine Moon, Toby Perkins, Bridget Phillipson, Ellie Reeves, Marie Rimmer, Tulip Siddiq, Dennis Skinner, Wes Streeting, Anna Turley, Thelma Walker, Catherine West Peter Kyle's' bill: lost by 12 votes Voted against: Kevin Barron, Ronnie Campbell, Sarah Champion, Rosie Cooper, Jon Cruddas, Caroline Flint, Yvonne Fovargue, Mary Glindon, Stephen Hepburn, Mike Hill, Kate Hoey, Dan Jarvis, Helen Jones, Kevan Jones, Emma Lewell-Buck, John Mann, Grahame Morris, Melanie Onn, Stephanie Peacock, Ruth Smeeth, Laura Smith, Gareth Snell, Graham Stringer, Derek Twigg, plus the eight ex-Labour TIG members Abstained: Julie Cooper, Judith Cummins, Gloria de Piero, Chris Evans, Jim Fitzpatrick, Carolyn Harris, Mike Kane, Ian Lavery, Liz McInnes, Jim McMahon, Ian Mearns, Lisa Nandy, Jo Platt, Paula Sherriff, John Spellar, Jon Trickett And this is where Corbyn's position went from being able to offer the tangible options of Remain, Deal or Leave that would have meant his position on Scotland would have seen a reduction of the weasel words while also not alienating Leave voters in the Red Wall, to offering a second referendum and a bunch of weasel words for Scotland plus a bunch of PO'd Leave voters in the Red Wall This is why there's a belief that Jonestown was weaponised to get rid of Corbyn which, when you see the regular backstabbers John Mann, Graham Stringer and Wes Streeting either voting against or abstaining all three of those votes along with the ex-Labour backstabbers who still had parliamentary votes at the time such as Gavin Shuker, Joan Ryan, Mike Gapes and Chris Leslie all costing Corbyn three very winnable votes, you can see how people reach that conclusion
No, I asked what his path to victory was. He didn't use one, if it existed. England votes Tory and voted for Brexit. There's no real way around that for Labour. Corbyn's position on Brexit just harmed him everywhere and did immense damage to the party, too.
Two Priti Vacant stories. The first: Lying twat. The second: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-55403058 Incompetent scum. The next Prime Minister.
Because it did exist, for a time - and then it got ****ed up by a lot of very familiar names voting against or abstaining from votes (and, since I'm here, thanks for the reminder of Anna Soubry's crocodile tears about Nick Boles' proposal not getting through and how he'd be welcomed in Change Independence UK Now Ltd Hashtag after she and the rest of them were directly responsible for Boles' proposal not getting through die to them abstaining on it) England doesn't vote Tory, that's the point: part of England votes Tory, just as part of England votes Labour, and nobody really gives a **** about the Lib Dems but nobody seems to have ever told them this. But do you not see the problem with what you said here: parts of Wales vote Labour, so focusing all of Labour's efforts on England is going to run the risk of losing votes in Wales Corbyn's position on Jonestown didn't harm him everywhere he went, the FBPE mob having the insane mental gymnastics that had them claim that he didn't "do enough" for the Remain campaign during the EU referendum campaign one minute and the next claim he's a Leave supporter for three years which had them convince themselves that Jo Swinson was the way forward and produced all manner of completely bogus charts and graphs to prove it, and do you know what happens when people convince themselves that the Lib Dems are the way forward? A Tory government is what happens The fact is that when Farage Ltd stood aside in Tory seats to not split the vote, it was abundantly clear that there needed to be an arrangement between Labour and the other parties for the exact same reason - and while the Greens did agree to stand aside and endorse Labour candidates in marginal seats, what were the Lib Dems doing? Refusing the budge an inch, even when their candidates in Labour marginals were stepping aside so they simply chucked another one to contest the seat as happened in both Canterbury and Portsmouth South off the top of my head And remind me, what was the Lib Dems' solution, since Jo Swinson thought she'd become PM? Oh yeah, now I remember: skills wallets ****ing hell, this country...
