Match Day Thread Norwich City vs. Sheffield Wednesday Sat 5th Dec KO 3.00 pm

[RiverEndRick]

The gap does seem to have widened but then it's always been wide. The big clubs have always had the big money and thus the best players. Smaller teams need to find a way to achieve synergy, where the total team output exceeds the skills level of the individual players. Sheffield United got a good start last season and survived comfortably by riding the confidence that came with it. This season they're rock bottom with the same tactics and same or better players.

IMO our present squad is better than that which won the Championship in 2018-19 and better also than the Lambert and Hughton sides that achieved survival in the PL. Like the Blades, those teams got a reasonable start and rode the confidence that came with it, though in both cases they struggled in the second half of the season but still managed to survive.

What we lacked last season was the ability to surprise other teams, except perhaps the Newcastle and ManCity games. This season our attacking play has more variety and that has helped. The recent injuries have affected that but we've still maintained momentum in spite of it. Placheta and Sørensen have risen to the occasion and Gibson has improved us defensively. How these and other players develop over the season will be critical.

 

[robbieBB]

Interesting that you separate 13 from 18. ( it appears to be 17 this season as I cannot see any further than the bottom four clubs in The Premiership for this year's drop. What I think is significant is that the bottom club with ten straight defeats at the end of last season is now top of The Championship. Has the gap between the top two tiers become too large?

13 because I think there's a five club survival zone we could occupy a place in if we made the best use of what we have and can afford. My beef last season was that we didn't. That's now history, so I'm looking for evidence that lessons have really been learned that will mean we do better next time. As of now I don't think they have sufficiently; "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose".

 

[carrowcanario]

13 because I think there's a five club survival zone we could occupy a place in if we made the best use of what we have and can afford. My beef last season was that we didn't. That's now history, so I'm looking for evidence that lessons have really been learned that will mean we do better next time. As of now I don't think they have sufficiently; "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose".

The trouble is that your expectations when we went up to the PL, did not match those of the club. Over the last few years the club has stuck to and in some areas exceeded it's plan. The club should be judge against the plan it set out, not against fan expectations. If we go up at the end of this season the club will do things differently, but that will not predominantly be because it learnt lessons from last time, it'll be because we will be at a different stage of our development plan.

 

[robbieBB]

The trouble is that your expectations when we went up to the PL, did not match those of the club.

Not true. I didn't expect us to stay up any more than you say the club did. At the same time, I'm quite sure they hoped we would stay up, just as we all did. I'm also sure the club's aim was to do the best it possibly could with the resources available to stay in the EPL last season and build from there. The only issue is whether our performance last season represented "the best we could possibly have done with the resources available". I don't think so. Nor have I ever seen or heard anyone from the club say they think so either.

 

[Canary Rob]

Not true. I didn't expect us to stay up any more than you say the club did. At the same time, I'm quite sure they hoped we would stay up, just as we all did. I'm also sure the club's aim was to do the best it possibly could with the resources available to stay in the EPL last season and build from there. The only issue is whether our performance last season represented "the best we could possibly have done with the resources available". I don't think so. Nor have I ever seen or heard anyone from the club say they think so either.

I don't think that's a realistic test. The best we could possibly have done is win the league. Every team is beatable.

The test is did we do the best we reasonably could have expected to do? The answer is still "no" in my view, but as I have said multiple times, I honestly think we were not far off it, because (i) injuries at CB which is just too critical a position if it is unsettled and (ii) the pandemic hitting just at the point we found form and team consistency and (iii) not having the crucial "twelfth man" for our final ten games, when we had some of our best chances of points gathering.

The reason I am confident of that is our home games in the last ten matches were:
Southampton
Everton
Brighton
West Ham
Burnley

Three or four wins out of those five - far from beyond the realms of possibility if we had had crowds - would have put us right in the mixer for survival. And, frankly, narrow survival was the best we reasonably could have expected.

 

[carrowcanario]

Not true. I didn't expect us to stay up any more than you say the club did. At the same time, I'm quite sure they hoped we would stay up, just as we all did. I'm also sure the club's aim was to do the best it possibly could with the resources available to stay in the EPL last season and build from there. The only issue is whether our performance last season represented "the best we could possibly have done with the resources available". I don't think so. Nor have I ever seen or heard anyone from the club say they think so either.

But your expectations were not limited just to whether we stayed up or not. You had other expectations for example I think I'm right when I say that you expected us to spend more than we did to try and stay up and you certainly expected us to make significant changes to our style of play in order to try and stay up. Canary Rob is right to highlight our CB injuries and Covid as things that happened that significantly impacted on our chances of staying up, which were very slim had everything gone well.

 

[robbieBB]

@Canary Rob
Yes, "reasonably" would have been better than "possibly". But IMO the answer is still the same. The pandemic hit all EPL clubs, including the five you list. Of the five clubs you fancied us to take points off, four actually improved their ppg over the final 9 matches, the exception being Burnley and they still averaged over a point a game. Even Villa improved, also averaging a point a game. We were uniquely poor from the resumption of the season.

 

[robbieBB]

But your expectations were not limited just to whether we stayed up or not. You had other expectations for example I think I'm right when I say that you expected us to spend more than we did to try and stay up and you certainly expected us to make significant changes to our style of play in order to try and stay up. Canary Rob is right to highlight our CB injuries and Covid as things that happened that significantly impacted on our chances of staying up, which were very slim had everything gone well.

No, I certainly did not expect us to spend more to try to stay up; I've no idea where you got that idea from. Nor did I ever advocate "significant changes to our style of play", e.g. I am 100% in favour of playing out from the back, not giving the ball away cheaply, and progressing the ball forward with quick, short, triangular passing, attacking through the centre rather than relying on crossing, etc, etc. What I criticised about our approach last season was DF's insistence on trying to impose our style of play on teams who, almost without exception, were better equipped to negate it than we were to make it work against them. If domination of the opponent is beyond you, and that message is being reinforced game after game, it is folly not to recognise it and adjust.
Last season is history. I've seen nothing so far this season to suggest that it'll be any different if we are back in the EPL in 2021--2022. We are only 1/3rd of the way into this season though, so still plenty of time for things to change. But if you ask am I holding my breath, the answer is No!

 

[Canary Rob]

@Canary Rob
Yes, "reasonably" would have been better than "possibly". But IMO the answer is still the same. The pandemic hit all EPL clubs, including the five you list. Of the five clubs you fancied us to take points off, four actually improved their ppg over the final 9 matches, the exception being Burnley and they still averaged over a point a game. Even Villa improved, also averaging a point a game. We were uniquely poor from the resumption of the season.

Sorry Robbie, I do not think those comparables are relevant. The expectations of Burnley, Villa and co. were really quite different to ours (they would each have had a reasonable best case of solid mid-table, if not higher in the case of Burnley).

We were, due to our financial constraints, uniquely reliant on the "twelfth man". It's the least guaranteed stratagem, but it is what we had. And so, when it disappeared, we were uniquely badly placed.

The idea that the pandemic hit all clubs equally is plainly untrue.

 

[Canary Rob]

No, I certainly did not expect us to spend more to try to stay up; I've no idea where you got that idea from. Nor did I ever advocate "significant changes to our style of play", e.g. I am 100% in favour of playing out from the back, not giving the ball away cheaply, and progressing the ball forward with quick, short, triangular passing, attacking through the centre rather than relying on crossing, etc, etc. What I criticised about our approach last season was DF's insistence on trying to impose our style of play on teams who, almost without exception, were better equipped to negate it than we were to make it work against them. If domination of the opponent is beyond you, and that message is being reinforced game after game, it is folly not to recognise it and adjust.
Last season is history. I've seen nothing so far this season to suggest that it'll be any different if we are back in the EPL in 2021--2022. We are only 1/3rd of the way into this season though, so still plenty of time for things to change. But if you ask am I holding my breath, the answer is No!

If it gets us promoted, why on earth would Farke want to change things on the off chance it might put us in a better place in the PL next year?

That is a high risk strategy on the basis of no evidence.

If we do actually need to change strategy when we are in the PL, let's wait to complain about that when we are in the PL.

 

[robbieBB]

If it gets us promoted, why on earth would Farke want to change things on the off chance it might put us in a better place in the PL next year?
That is a high risk strategy on the basis of no evidence.
If we do actually need to change strategy when we are in the PL, let's wait to complain about that when we are in the PL.

The answer, Rob, is that by now it shouldn't be "the off chance". Lessons are said to have been learned from last season. What lessons, if not what we need to do differently to make a better fist of trying to stay up once we get back? Second time round it shouldn't be just another case of "let's get ourselves promoted first"; it should be a case of "we know now what is needed to get ourselves back in the EPL and stay there". There's never a guarantee, but there should at least be a recognisable strategy; more of the same with marginal improvement in some areas isn't enough. We can argue all we want; the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. If come January 2022, we are comfortably mid-lower half in the EPL table, with the same approach, I will eat my words

 

[carrowcanario]

The answer, Rob, is that by now it shouldn't be "the off chance". Lessons are said to have been learned from last season. What lessons, if not what we need to do differently to make a better fist of trying to stay up once we get back? Second time round it shouldn't be just another case of "let's get ourselves promoted first"; it should be a case of "we know now what is needed to get ourselves back in the EPL and stay there". There's never a guarantee, but there should at least be a recognisable strategy; more of the same with marginal improvement in some areas isn't enough. We can argue all we want; the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. If come January 2022, we are comfortably mid-lower half in the EPL table, with the same approach, I will eat my words

We may have to do the same again. As I understand it the idea was First time up spend very little, put our finances in order and see what happens. If we stay up great, if we don't then we go down and come straight back up then we are in a much better position financially to invest more in trying to stay in PL. The fly in the ointment is Covid, which has significantly affected our financial position.

 

[Canary Rob]

The answer, Rob, is that by now it shouldn't be "the off chance". Lessons are said to have been learned from last season. What lessons, if not what we need to do differently to make a better fist of trying to stay up once we get back? Second time round it shouldn't be just another case of "let's get ourselves promoted first"; it should be a case of "we know now what is needed to get ourselves back in the EPL and stay there". There's never a guarantee, but there should at least be a recognisable strategy; more of the same with marginal improvement in some areas isn't enough. We can argue all we want; the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. If come January 2022, we are comfortably mid-lower half in the EPL table, with the same approach, I will eat my words

The problem is that I have no idea how you can be so confident there is no recognisable strategy.

Maybe you can see something I cannot, but for me it’s far simpler than this: are the current strategy and tactics going to get us promoted?

If the answer is that they seem to be working, the for heaven’s sake let’s not moan about it now. Let’s fix our strategy for the PL when we know we are in the PL.

 

[zogean_king]

Let’s fix our strategy for the PL when we know we are in the PL.

Yes, lets not count our chickens before they hatch