I can see where you are coming from GP, but I don't think is as clear cut as you've made out. You've raised some valid points about the ratings of So You Think. I've always had problems with the ranking of horse against horse. It certainly can be of great help, but it also opens up a can of worms. There will always be anomalies. As for the race position of So You Think in the Arc, I think that AOB has made a few mistake with the horse. He just doesn't seem to be able to come to grips with what best suits the animal. He tried to bust the opposition from a fair way out in the Prince of Wales, a tactic used quite a bit in the UK. It wasn't in the horse's best interests. Then he got it right in the Eclipse, when he drafted into the race behind Workforce, before being give a final quick dash at them. Then in the Arc, I think his fear of the barrier got too much for him. He decided to drop the horse out, something that has never been done in any of his previous races. This riding plan was a first for the horse. It was an odd time to make the change. The UK has not as yet seen what the horse is capable of when he's asked to turn on the after jets in a middle distance race. He would have had no trouble crossing from a wide gate, to take a position much closer. The risk of course is that he might have been trapped a little deep early on, but as he has great pace, he'd be able to hopefully solve the problem. I've supplied a link of the 2010 Cup where SYT has to strangled, down the straight the first time, to keep him off the pace. He then fought the bit for most of the journey. He wanted to be on the pace. The second link if full of press hyperbole, but the short clips of SYT winning his two Cox Plates attests to his speed. When you Factor in the speed of these two wins, with the way he raced in the Cup, I believe he'd have better placed on the speed in the Arc. AOB should trusted the horse. SYT is in the 2 slot in the Cup. Black and white checks and cap, yellow sleeves. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD-HQ2tOJjc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVDSZpKBcJs&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL21A97BD737B147B1
I can't prove anything Cyclonic, just as you can't prove that Usain Bolt is a faster runner than I am. Common sense needs to prevail here. So you are trying to say that Yeats would not have won at level weights. There was a reason Yeats was carrying so much weight, and that was because even the Aussie handicapper knew he was miles superior to your stayers. Same rules apply with Persian Punch, are you trying to say the 11 pounds he was conceding didnt contribute to his lengh defeat. The fact remains when the top stayers from Europe run at the Melbourne Cup, the handicapper gives them top weight, because Europes best stayers are far superior to the ones you have over there. Even your own handicapper rates them higher
Zenyatta....Your last comment is borderline ridiculous. So your using the views of the racing post ratings guy to prove your point. Everyone knows his ratings are just his opinion, like anyone else's, and are no more valid than any other opinion. If you want to get into ratings, can you please let me know when So You Think has run to 132 this season, was it in his defeat to Rewilding? Which would make Rewilding a 133 horse, and Sri Putra a 126 horse. Or was it in the Eclipse were he was flogged to get by Workforce, which would make Workforce a 131 performer, and Sri Putra a 127 horse, or was it in the Irish Champion were he hung on by the skin of his teeth, which would see Snow Fairy a 131 horse and Famous Name a 126 horse. Please let me know which race he has produced a 132 performance. He's at best ran to 126 this season, and that's being generous
I'm not for a moment suggesting that Yeats and Persian Punch were not amazing horses. Nobody can argue that the very the best of our stayers could compete against Yeats on his own soil. He was a Gold Cup freak. He deserved every pound of the weight allotted to him out here, as he'd done more that anything else in the race. 9 stone 6 is a massive weight to carry in a handicap, especially a G1 event like the Melbourne Cup. But to suggest that weight was the only reason he was beaten, is a mistake. He was a wonderful horse, a once in a life time horse, but he was a horse who excelled in the UK where staying races are run differently than in Australia. Other horses have carried massive weights and prevailed in the Cup. They don't do it too often, as it's an herculean task. Maykeby Dive, a mare carried 9.2 if memory serves. Think Big 9.2. Comic Court 9.5 and Rain Lover 9.7. Weight can be carried, but you have to have a versatile horse who can handle the stop and go type of racing. We only have Fallon's opinion, probably the best opinion, that it was the way the racing takes place in Australia, that brought him undone. He didn't have the gears to match them when they turn it off and on several times during the race. Sure he had the impost of the weight to deaden his response, but he was clearly, the wrong type for the race. Godolphin have thought long and hard about this problem, and are still trying to figure it out. I'll say nothing more on the matter. We'll just have to agree to disagree on what it takes to win a Melbourne Cup.
Where did you get that daft avatar, Cyclonic? Is it Danedream laughing at SYT? PS. Sorry- a bit close to the bone!
I know nothing about putting pictures up on line, so i asked Ron, who set me right. So seeing that this is a racing forum, I thought I'd better get a horse photo, so I googled "funny horse picture" and up popped this and others. As soon as I saw it, I thought..."that's me!" From the right angle, I swear that the avatar and I could be twins.
With all due respect Shergar i have quite a bit more respect for Sam Walker's opinion than that of your own good self and i am sure that many members of this forum agree! How can you possibly justify saying that the highly respected RPR are ridiculous simply because they do not agree with the argument that you are trying to force?! I can never debate with you because you just bludgeon across your own opinion with little respect for that of others, including a renowned expert in his field! You are very happy to use evidence such as ratings when they are in your favour and very happy to dismiss them if they are not. The fact is, whether you agree with the rating or not, SYT ran below his best on Sunday. Did it make the difference between him winning and losing, probably not but nobody will know.
Take nothing away from Danedream. She looked fit and well and won the race easily and almost broke the course record. I refer to the course record because most Arcs aren't run on such good ground. However, I have to say that several horses did not look too impressive in the paddock and I'm sure they did not run to their best. Workforce in particular looked off colour to me. The temperature for this time of the year is the hottest since 1895 and I reckon Sunday could have been the hottest day; it was very, very hot. Some must have already been losing their summer coat with the colder spell that preceded the heatwave and this heat could not have made them feel like racing. They just weren't up for it. That's my reasoning for the below par performances anyway. It would be interesting to know how they got Danedream to the races in better condition than most.
Really interesting article in the old ‘Guardian’ today in which the future of Longchamp and the Arc is discussed. It would appear that the course will, in the not too distant future, tear down the old grandstand and build a new one. This will mean that just like when Ascot and Doncaster did the same during the last decade the course will need to close for a season. 2013 was given as the most likely date. A new venue would therefore need to be found for this 'interim period' and 2 possibles were mooted and were apparently being considered. Chantilly was deemed the most likely but it clearly stated that if the Executive wished to keep the attendance level at 50,000+ the only option was Ascot. Could therefore the Arc be run across the county line in Royal Berkshire in less than 2 years time?!?
Would be inclined to agree Cyc...but never say never I suppose.The Tour De France was started recently in the home counties for example.
Zenyatta.....The reason you can't debate with me, is because you cannot give me an example of SYT running to 132, so because you have been proved wrong, your going down that road.
SBC...There is more chance of you shagging the queens Corgy, than the French allowing the Arc to be run in England. Could you imagine the uproar from the French racing fans. Could you imagine if we had allowed Royal Ascot to be run at Longchamp when Ascot had there stand done, how would we have reacted? it just wouldn't work. Also you have to remember that now Ascot has this champions day thing, Lomgchamp is now one of there biggest rivals. Champions day is the biggest threat to the Arc being Europes number 1 flat race, so there is no chance the 2 courses would do business
I am actually correct because SYT ran to a mark of 132 in the Eclipse. That is fact, whether you agree with it or not. I am not necessarily saying that i think he has run to 132 this season. I must admit to being no ratings expert myself. What i am saying is that Sam Walker (who i think we can safely say is a ratings expert) thinks he has run to 132 this season, and Sam Walker also thinks that a performance of 132 from a colt would have been good enough to win the Arc on Sunday. He therefore believes that SYT was good enough to win the Arc. I am only suggesting that this supports the view that SYT was able to show his best on the day. I am not suggesting Walker is right. I am not saying that the ratings are right. I just thought it was a very interesting point.
And on the Ascot point, listening to the BBC programme on Sunday the impression i got when the subject was discussed very briefly was that Ascot was the first choice alternative. Not sure whether i was getting the wrong end of the stick but it sounded like they wanted it to be at Ascot . . .
Me again! Article in the Telegraph says that "Seamie Heffernan had reportedly been instructed to ride So You Think forward, but instead dropped him out after the five year-old had been only fairly away". I think if they are keeping him in training next year they must be pretty damn confident that there is quite a bit more to come. I can't believe they would risk it otherwise because although his reputation is probably 'dented' he still has a lot to lose.
There is no doubt that the old amenities at Longchamp are looking a bit dated. If the Grandstand weren’t so tall it wouldn’t cast a shadow across the whole track after five thirty, which is a real annoyance to those of us trying to take photos of the last couple of races! If they rebuild the place, I hope they don’t get in the idiots that designed Ascot. I have never been to Chantilly but from what I have seen of it on TV, I do not think that it has sufficient capacity plus it is not logistically good for most visitors with the ‘RER D’ Gare Du Nord to Gare de Chantilly – Gouvieux journey being about 25 minutes but surely not having the train capacity to handle thousands of day trippers on race day. It has the advantage for the home-trained horses that most of them are trained around Chantilly. The largest course in the Paris suburbs is Maisons-Laffitte, known for having the longest straight, but the capacity is only around 20,000. It is north-west of Longchamp, right next to the River Seine between Saint-Germain and Argenteuil, so transport might be less of an issue although the Metro doesn’t extend that far.
