I agree with some of the book, breaking the law is breaking the law and should be properly addressed, no ifs, no buts. I didn't like the way he dismissed the wrong doings of the Catholic Church, to quote the bible "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". It's difficult, being in country Australia, to relate to some of the book. A lot of the urban conflict doesn't appear dissimilar to some of the stories about Irish, Italian or Greek immigrants you hear about, but two wrongs don't make a right. I was left wondering whether he was going about this the right way. Taking an issue on in the way he does makes people take sides, but if he hadn't would anybody have listened. The story about the England team wearing a poppy typified this head on confrontation. He climbed the FIFA headquarters in Zurich to protect and the PM and Prince William contacted them to request them to allow the poppy on the arm-band, which they agreed to. I found some of his personal stories fanciful but I can't say if they are truthful or not. I'm glad I read it, it hasn't necessarily changed my opinion but at least I understand some of his angst. Having lived in Malaysia, a Muslim Country, for several years where Ramadan Celebrations, turned seamlessly into Deepavali that turned into Christmas (Yes not Happy Holidays) which turned into Chinese New Year then I have seen different religions in a Muslim Country live together without the grooming, gangs and drugs etc. I could even get non-Halal meat and proper bacon, in the local supermarket but that's not to say Malaysia doesn't have its own particular issues.
My son lived in Penang and we visited him there quite a bit. Talking to taxi drivers, they all used to laugh and say 'living in Malaysia is great, you get to celebrate everyone's holidays. Life is a ball." Kuala Lumpar airport was always dressed for Christmas, as was Singapore. No religious divide in either of those countries. Pity we can't learn from them.
This is an interesting video about what is happening around the world today. The speaker is Robert Welch from 1958, things he said tie in with todays Deep State and other crooks. Should open a few eyes to what's happening in our country at the moment.
I have recently rejoined the site but have been reading for many years. I've only put my head above the parapet in Boggers Bar until now but in reading this thread especially, where most have very strong views one way or the other, I thought I would add mine to the mix. I voted to leave in 2016 and hoped Brussels would consider why we voted that way. What could they do to convince us to stay. That never happened. If we had come together as a country after the vote I believe we would have a good trading relationship with the rest of the EU now but since the referendum everyone's heckles have been up. You're either a Remainer or a Brexiteer and there is no middle ground, because there can't be. It was a binary choice, so you either won or lost. Unfortunately, not all those who lost have accepted defeat. I voted leave for many reasons; I don't need more layers of Politicians telling me what to do, Our trade with the EU 27 has been falling consistently since 2002 (albeit a small upturn in 2017) and I believe we can do better on a world stage There are too many people crowded on to this small island. We have almost the same population as Germany and, as is demonstrated by the camps at Calais, we are an attractive destination. With free movement our borders are only as good as the countries on the edge of the EU so it's not just French Doctors and German Nurses. The EU is becoming a government of Europe, not the Common Market it began as. I also have issues with the way the CAP budget is distributed among others but this post is too long anyway. I have asked many of those who support us remaining for a positive reason to stay. I've given several reasons why I voted to leave but have never heard a positive reason to stay. I don't mean "the sky will fall in if we leave" We've heard that and the Brexit Party stormed the EU elections. Convince me. Tell me why we should stay. I hope this doesn't upset too many posters and sorry for the length
You'll only upset the Looney left snowflakes on here bud who will tell you you are a racist for voting to leave the corrupt EU
Good post. I voted remain. You list a number of genuine reasons why you believe the UK would be better out of Europe. Reality is that your likelihood to vote remain/leave depends on a combination of age/location/education. Why? Your circumstances dictate your life’s experiences. But if we break it down to 3 main areas immigration, control, economics... which are obviously linked. - economics. Yes we pay to be in Europe. The net cost to us of being in Europe is estimated at £9billion per year. The CBI estimated the benefit to business from free trade etc was worth 4-5% of gdp or £60billion+. The EU accounts for over 50% of our imports and over 40% of exports. So leaving comes with risk, being the first to leave comes with greater risk. I’m not getting into the scaremongering arguments. To me the obvious effect of leaving was an immediate downturn in the economy. How long would this last, would we be better off in the long run? Impossible to say. - control. Yes we give up some control. For me, not on areas that are critical, but I do get this. And there has been a lot of rubbish spoken about completely losing sovereignty. It’s ironic how people currently feel about our parliament, after voting to give them more control - immigration. This is part a cultural thing and part an economic one. Economically we need immigrants. EU migrant workers contribute more to the economy than they take out paying more in taxes than they take in benefits. They contribute more on average than the average UK national. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rexit-migrants-british-citizens-a8542506.html I lived in London for 20 years, for me the cultural melting pot is part of what makes it the great city it is. I didn’t see immigrants stealing jobs, I saw them working hard on jobs the Brits didn’t really want to do or weren’t able to do. Do I suggest that this is representative of others’ experiences. Of course not, but they are mine. People are people, they are just shaped by background and opportunity. Ultimately, is it better to be inside Europe working to improve it, or outside looking in? The EU is far from perfect, but the concept of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts has merit in my opinion. Do I think meltdown will happen after brexit? No. Life will go on. But the way the country is divided by leave/remain is sad. I can see both sides of the argument but ultimately for me, leaving is a backward step. Maybe I feel more like this because of the debate being led or highjacked by those promoting an exclusive not an inclusive society. It’s easy to blame outsiders for your troubles. For every post like yours there’s conspiracy theory and bigotry. I don’t think there should have been a referendum and certainly not one as binary as we got, but it happened, leave won, they should get their wish. But hey I’m just a radical left snowflake, who’s never voted Labour.
I understand the economic argument because the EU don't want us to leave so will make, and have made, everything as difficult as possible. I want a trade deal that we would get if we had never been members. What kind of deal would you offer the 5th largest economy who spends more with you than you spend with them. All the arguments are just because we are leaving. It would not be a problem for us to continue to trade as we do except there are stipulations; Free movement - in it's basic form is for big business to get cheap labour. If you were offered a job in France it would not be an issue to get a work visa. We have to pay - even though we buy far more from the EU than they buy from us (and it's been consistently falling) we still have a huge bill every year. The EU will not change. The reason Cameron promised the referendum was because the Conservatives lost so many votes to UKIP. He tried numerous times to change the EU but wasn't successful. He had to change because he has to answer to the people. The leaders of the EU don't have that problem. With the "Populist" uprising throughout Europe and with us leaving you'd think they'd take a look at themselves but they haven't. As far as the demographic goes, yes, big cities are far more likely to be remain but that doesn't cover much of the country. The argument that we're doing ok as we are obviously doesn't work for more than half the voters in the referendum. The reason I asked my question is because there are a huge amount of people who aren't doing ok and, if we remain in the EU, can't see any prospect of it improving so telling them it's going to be Armageddon if we leave doesn't really work. Us Brits are made of sterner stuff. Those who want us to remain need to find some positives and get away from the horror stories
Yep that covers it about right to me, no doubt you will get a reply from DBC and Co quoting all sorts of made up figures disputing what you say. My advise is just ignore.
Hey Blono, I disagree about the binary thing. I'm actually one of probable many who didn't know what way to vote. And I still don't. The only guidance we got for in or out was total guesswork on the part of both sides. Even the IMF severely damaged their reputation by making almost threatening claims - and getting them completely wrong! Facts play no part in this Brexit thing. Two years later, no-one has any idea how things will actually work out. No-one. Only guesses, hopes & aspirations. But fcuk all fact. As you would expect for venturing into the unknown with unknown variables. I have heard of one absolutely solid reason for voting Remain, btw. It's the fact that since joining the EU, not one member country has been at war with another. If you look at the history of Europe, this is quite a remarkable benefit. But opinions & politics are clearly more important than facts.
TBF while we have been in the EU, the French gave help to Argentina to fight us in the Falklands war, with Spain openly supporting Argentina,and for 30 years before we joined the EU we also had no wars in Europe, probably more to do with Nuclear weapons than any other reason.
But you're not venturing into the unknown, the UK was conned into joining the common market(EU) back in 1973.. so, its not that unknown Balkans
Sorry, I messed up the post. It was a straight in or out question and, as I said previously, if the country had got behind the result from the start I think the vast majority would be happier now, whichever way they voted. As far as people not knowing what they voted for, I hear this a lot but, actually, everyone I speak to who voted to leave has reasons, not all the same but I've yet to speak to anyone who voted to leave without thinking it through. Those who voted remain on the other hand don't seem to have a compelling reason apart from "the world is going to end" if we leave, or "we're doing ok aren't we" I take your point that there has been no wars in the last 70 years but I have to agree that it has very little to do with the EU. I would actually suggest that we're looking at more civil unrest in member states due to the penalties and regulations imposed from Brussels. I would like to suggest a documentary film called Inside Job. It's about the financial crisis. How it came about and how it affected different countries. In that documentary they discuss Iceland who basically went broke after the banks went bust. Iceland was able to control it's own economy and devalue it's currency in order to start the recovery. Iceland is now growing faster than us, Germany and France to name just three countries. Greece was in a similar position but was tied to the Euro so had to beg the Central Bank for funds and we all know that story. With Germany and France in the Euro the smaller Southern European countries have a huge battle to keep their economies afloat whereas Germany runs enough of a surplus to pay the debt of all of them. Being tied to Germany is killing them but, for Germany, it makes their exports much cheaper than if they still had the Deutchmark. Just another reason I wanted to leave the EU.
Hmm. How vague. No facts. Indeed, purely supposition. Quel surpris. French 'help'. Would this be selling Argentina 5 Exocet missiles before the war? Or do you know something we all don't know that you insist on keeping secret. How about Sir John Nott & The Wicked Witch declaring that France were our 'Greatest Ally' in the war? It's true. And unlike yourself, I offer proof ..... "FRANCE was Britain's greatest ally during the Falklands war, providing secret information to enable MI6 agents to sabotage Exocet missiles which were desperately sought by Argentina, according to Sir John Nott, who was Defence Secretary during the conflict". https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...helped-us-win-Falklands-war-by-John-Nott.html Interestingly, the US opposed our aims, if you read the article. As for Spain, I have no clue what you're talking about. A cursory search finds the following quote from the Spanish equivalent of 10 Downing Street .... "Spain considers the United Kingdom a friend". Best I can find, but then I don't know what you're referring to. https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...-to-force-UK-to-leave-Falklands-and-Gibraltar Perhaps you could give us some links to support your as yet unfounded assertions? P.S. Looks like you got the wrong end of the stick re. the 'war within Europe' item. This was reference to members not being at war with other members since joining the EU, the key phrase being 'since joining the EU'. Do you require further clarity on this?
I would most certainly hope that anyone voting had 'reasons' to do so! But what factual data did they have to come to those conclusions? Most people I hear speaking about this primarily used 'financial and economic data' to come up with these 'reasons'. So did the IMF - and they got it totally wrong! So what chance did an ordinary punter have to build a solid reasoning, when it was proved by the IMF that it was flawed thinking to be using aspirational (i.e. actually unavailable) data. And I'll skip over the highly sensitive & emotional issue of 'immigration'. You've already covered that & I agree that a lot of the thinking there was seriously flawed. Please note that I don't fault the people for performing this flawed deductive reasoning & jumping to conclusions. Not their fault that the data available was unavailable or heavily politicised. How could they make a decision without the correct data? Just to be clear - I don't blame individuals, I blame the politicians. The root cause of their collectively disgraceful behaviour is Cameron. That cannot be disputed.
