Hmmm....more than likely parents that understood just how near this country lost its freedom. Yes even so you could make comments on a forum like this. Less we forget.........The many people that did not return from the battlefields to keep our freedom and in fact the EU's. We should forget our past...or it didn't happen??............... I agree we have to move on........but be forever wary.......We are stronger together this is true but we don't need to be living in each others pockets to be this way.
Do you not agree that the strongest force for peace in Europe since the end of the Second World War has in fact been the Common Market/EEC/EU?
Goodness yes I totally agree...and that need not change.....in my view we are being dominated by Europe in particular France. (I haven't ever forgotten how it was the French that said non to our applications to join the common market on at least two occasions before they were eventually over ruled) Yet here we are again negotiating to leave and who are we negotiating with .........the French. On behalf of the other EU states of course....oh yea.......... Yes lets go back to what was agreed at the beginning when it really was a common market. The so called united front is very one sided. In my view the poorer countries still go along with what France wants because of the threat of losing the money that we and others are putting into their country through the EU. Even the German parliament seems to acknowledge this. (From a post on here a while ago) You guys are right in a way it would be better to be in a common market the way it was not how it is now........
Thanks for deflecting my point. And Michel Barnier is not “the French”. He is a French citizen of course, but his job is the chief Brexit negotiator of the EU Commission. You would imagine the other EU nations might have had an input into the talks with Theresa May than just “the French”. Here’s a link to a piece in the Independent about 122 armed forces veterans of conflicts from WW2 onwards who are worried about the effect of Brexit on peace: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...iversary-veterans-ww2-eu-europe-a8946046.html Out of interest, what’s your solution for maintaining peace in Ireland either side of the border, once we leave the EU?
What makes you think our negotiations with the EU will be any different after we leave to when we were independent trying to join or now when we're independently trying to leave? Every time we want to negotiate with the EU we will will have to go through this, just without the control we have while inside or protection from EU rules. Edit: also currently 3/4 of the mon EU trade partners we are trying to reestablish our trade deal with are saying non.
I can count 8 extended family members who I know are exclusively Daily Express or Daily Mail readers. All Brexiteers. The rest get their news and information from various sources. All Pro-EU. Tells you something. I've read a few articles from the Daily Express and Daily Mail subsequent to the EU Referendum. All tinged with a 'little Englander' attitude that I would never want to adopt. I actually find it quite stomach-turning. That kind of mentality was old and out of date by the 1960's. I never want this country to go back to that myopic attitude, never mind the fact that inside the EU, the UK is among the top 3 players who steer the direction the EU takes. Outside of the EU our world influence would be much closer to zero. STOP PRESS: Well bugger me. Just as I was about to post this, my Brexiteer older relative texted me to say that he'd viewed all of Professor Dougan's videos here [and several still lurking on YT that I haven't posted here] and he's finally changed his mind. He even apologised for his part in this [his words] 'screwed up mess that I helped to cause'.
How on earth did I deflect your point? I thought I agreed with your main point? I suppose you knew there might be a problem with NI if we decided to come out......? There was me thinking a reasonable solution had been found.........a temporary one perhaps........but with technology the problems could have been solved was my understanding.
May's solution put a partially EU controlled border in the middle of the UK, denying our own people free access to our own countries resources. The black magic.. sorry, technological solution requires the EU to agree to carry out the checks for us at their borders and factories, or give us control over all their borders so we do it. No realistic solution has been found.
You deflected my point, which was about the EU in its various forms having kept the peace in Europe, the Balkan conflict and the Troubles in Northern Ireland apart, for nearly 75 years. You decided to start talking about going back to the Common Market again, as though that would ever be possible, and you started talking about De Gaulle refusing us entry to a club we had helped set up but had made very clear we didn’t want to join, until we saw how successful it was. Ok, once again, the fact that the open border in Ireland which has been one of the main benefits of the Good Friday Agreement is only possible because both the Republic and ourselves are members of the EU is well known. It was always obvious that if we left the EU under any terms we would have to find a solution to this conundrum but it is also increasingly obvious that there simply isn’t a solution. The Irish border is over 300 miles long and has over 300 major and minor roads, plus a multitude of farm tracks and footpaths crossing it, none of which are controlled in any way. Some roads cross and recross the border several times in the space of a few miles, as the border is far from being a straight line. There are more border crossings between the Republic and NI than there are between the EU and the countries to the east, Russia, Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus, and Turkey, in a border nearly 4,000 miles long. Please explain what this temporary technological solution is and how it works. Does it involve closing all the crossings apart from a few manned by armed troops, as was the case during the Troubles? That is a good way of making the people of NI decide to leave the UK and rejoin their neighbours in the south in the EU.
There was many solutions offered that were not accepted by the EU. I don't have a solution to the problems in Northern Ireland although we are told by better qualified people than you and I there could be. My understanding is that no permanent solution has been offered as this would require the EU to work with us on the problem something to date that has not happened. De Gaulle did refuse us entry at least twice that is a fact of history.........We did encourage the EU as it now known now to work together. We had other agreements with other nations in place then that we didn't feel we could break. So we decided to stay out for the time being. When we joined it was called the common market just about trade non of the politics that crept in later. Non of the EU courts could overturn any decisions our own courts made. I'm not going to go back into all that.........I accept that you don't agree with me, fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree as they say. Personally I cant see this going any other way we will stay in..........If thats what the people want then so be it..........it still will not change my mind on how I feel about it. So roll on the next referendum lets get this over and done with and stop dragging the country through the mud. there is no need for it.............but lets make the next one legal and binding!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is the sentiment I'm talking about though Beddy and I mean no disrespect. Of course I acknowledge like my parents the monumental role that Britain played in the war. I've visited the allied cemeteries and was moved to tears. It was tangible. My grandparents fought in the war. My point is that like Churchill felt, we need to be part of a bigger collective with economic benefits and the power of the group for protection. I see Europe as our friends and cousins, and I celebrate the subtle cultural differences between each. We need to be at that table, and they want us to be at that table. For me it is about collaboration in a changing world, not past power or influence, though we will at least have that influence at the table. My gut instinct is that to leave is a tragic mistake.
The temporary solution is the backstop. -The hard border between NI and the UK. The technological solution requires goods to be electronically registered onto our systems at the point of entry to the EU, if they are heading to the UK, either at the factory they are produced or the border into the EU from the 3rd country. This would require us to trust the EU and its companies to do our customs checks for us and presumably pay them to do so as they get nothing out of it otherwise. It's very vague as this system isn't in use anywhere in the world.
Believe me when I say I understand where you are coming from. Of course there are benefits to staying in the EU...........No doubt about it........All I want is some changes so that we too can make our own decisions about who we trade with who we don't. Mind you the governments of late leave a lot to be desired too!! When I voted I genuinely did not expect the vote to go the way that it did. I certainly didn't ever imagine it would bring this kind of mess. I would rather forget the vote and go back in if it will unite the people again. Somehow Cannot see that happening unless we start to have a brave government.
Here's an interesting graph given what's being commemorated today and given ludicrous claims about how veterans somehow saved us from European domination. The higher up the graph the more sceptical about Europe. please log in to view this image The people most anti Europe are the people whose parents fought in the war. The people who actually fought are around as pro-Europe as people currently aged around 30. It's hardly surprising. These are people who actually experienced where nationalism leads. Source: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019...neration-are-almost-as-pro-eu-as-millennials/ Vin
I still don’t understand why you think the EU prevents us trading with whoever we want. As I have said before, and as that first Michael Dougan video posted by TSS explains, our membership of the Single Market actually makes us a far more attractive trading partner with any non-EU nation than if we leave. If we leave we will have nothing to bargain with, as we don’t make anything that anyone wants any more. And we don’t have to trade with anyone we don’t want to now.
I was thinking about this the other day. I went out with a girl from close to Newry, on a small road that crossed the border. Here's the road she lived on. A couple of miles further on it crosses the border into Eire. It's one of hundreds like it. Explore it here: https://goo.gl/maps/YNHf4ZMhLm2y7BkK7 I would love someone to tell me exactly what technological solutions would prevent someone driving in either direction at 3am with a van loaded with smuggled goods or (heaven forfend!) illegal immigrants. Top tip for anyone winging it, a piece of cardboard will cover number plates. Vin
Or there's here. You're currently in Northern Ireland. Turn left into either of those driveways and as you cross the ditch you're in Eire. What technology will police this bit of the border? Vin
Magic dust, sprinkled from the clouds by leprechauns riding unicorns. The really annoying thing is that when the Irish border issue was brought up during the referendum campaign, and cited as one of those ancient tribal conflicts that mutual EU membership had helped to resolve, Leavers reacted with scorn. A scorn clearly born of ignorance.
