I disagree in 2 ways to this. I disagree that Farage is incapable of pointing out solutions. I respectfully say that its more like you cant accept his solutions. He has repeatedly stated what he would do if he was in charge with negotiations. No deal certainly wouldnt be off the table and the EU would have offered a far better deal because they know Farage well enough to know that he would not be scared to leave on a no deal and the EU know they need us more than we need them. I also disagree that you say so many brexiteers are incapable of pointing out solutions. We brexiteers are not actually responsible for finding solutions. That's why you don't see any of us making such suggestions. Its government whose job it is to find solutions. They gave the people a choice. Leave or remain. Leave won. Government has to implement that decision. Not us brexiteers. But the government. They have wasted time in doing so and got a very bad deal for remainers and brexiteers. May said over 100 times in parliament that no deal is better than a bad deal. She refuses to accept from all sides in parliament that her deal is a bad deal and even if she could, the rest of parliament fukked up by voting to take our biggest negotiating tool off the table by removing no deal from our weaponry. So lets not accuse us brexiteers of being incapable of finding solutions. Its not our job to do that. Politicians get paid over £70k a year for the privileged of finding those solutions and other perks like expenses paid and 2nd homes paid for them. While some brexiteers are working 2 or more jobs to try and pay for bills and keep a roof over their head. While brexiteers, who are employed, have to use foodbanks to be able to have food. While brexiteers, who are ex-forces, who live on the streets. These are just some examples of some brexiteers, who just wouldnt have the resources to even try to seek solutions. Just saying.
I only get drunk after about 12 pints and nowadays only imbibe 2 max … I do not respond to Brexit fever if there is such a thing? I take the wider view not a minute speck of a singular point / person and it is not a rant and certainly not bizarre .. it was a post as a result of our Friday coffee morning and our general discussion was revolving around MEP's elections etc and it was a comment made by one of our 7 that … " I bet when we go through the 606 some erjit will harp on about Nigel and tie him into Brexit and blaming him for the lack of progress" … 3 of our group have more letters after their name than in it .. ex DOUNERAY …. UNI COLLEGE HOSPITAL … a lecturer on PSYCHOLOGY also 2 teachers and us other 2 both being menial managers/ company owners ….
Oh yes he is. How many times has he failed to become an MP now? Sorry mate but I can't agree with this at all. Not to say you're wrong, it's impossible to know who's right, but why on earth is no deal being on the table a good thing? Anyone who can actually read a book knows that no deal would be bad for Europe and catastrophic for us. The EU would not offer us a better deal in the knowledge that we have more to lose than them. It's the single biggest thing Brexiteers have been kidding themselves over. 'They need us more than we need them'. Not a chance. I also won't quote your final paragraph due to the size of it but while I get your point, politicians do get paid a lot of money to find solutions... if the solution isn't there, then no money in the world will fix it. Just like with the Irish border!
Looking from the outside and a long way away from this nonsense makes me wonder how the hell can sane people allow this to happen? I never understood the reason for getting in to this so-called alliance in the first place when it must have become clear over the intervening years that they really didn't want you, rather like DeGaulle back in the previous years. I have no real thoughts on leaving or staying because it does not directly affect my life but when I see and hear all the discord that this fiasco has created it makes me feel quite concerned about the overall stability and future of my birth country. Please don't waste your time and efforts fighting amongst each other when this is the time to say bollocks to that lot across the English Channel and start recreating the old version of the country and doing whatever it takes to regain your dignity. Each time I return I can't help but notice that a little bit more of my England has gone forever only to be replaced with disharmony and a seemingly endless desire to be politically correct so as not to offend. Grab the future by the nuts and make it your own.
You said it yourself, no deal will be bad for Europe. With no deal on the table, they would offer a better deal in fear that we go down the no deal route. Its a win win for both Europe and the UK. Taking no deal off the table means Europe can offer us a bad deal knowing we will either accept it or revoke article 50. A win win for Europe and loss for the UK as a bad deal would be in your own words be catastrophic and revoking article 50 would kill democracy in the UK and make the far right even worse against Europe. Thing is, if remain had won, Farage would have been gone and subject would have been over and finished. Leave won and a lot of remainers can not and will not accept it. And as for they need us more than we need them is us kidding ourselves, every study shows what we import from the EU is worth more than what we export to the EU. The EU would lose more than what we would lose. Also we, the UK, have the 5th biggest economy and the EU cannot afford to lose us. That's not an opinion. That is a fact. There was a solution. The threat of a no deal. But politicians were too thick to use it and then lost it. Politicians was too thick and voted in a remainer (who didn't believe in brexit) to be PM to deal with brexit. Politicians were too thick and didn't prepare for brexit to win the referendum. Politicians were too thick and voted to start the article 50 process too soon without a plan to make brexit work. The Tories were too thick and kept negotiations to themselves and tried making it a Tory brexit instead of seeking a cross party brexit and therefore alienated parliament who therefore have voted down everything the the PM put forward. If it was all done properly from the very beginning and was taken seriously by our politicians then a good deal could have been made with the EU. But mistake after mistake has lead us to where we are now. And with a weak opposition in parliament hasn't helped either. Labour will refuse everything because they want a general election. They are too thick to realise their own manifesto is not too far off the deal that the PM got with the EU. Labour won't compromise yet claim the PM won't compromise. Parliament is a joke. Major changes need to be made for trust to be brought back to the people. Whoever comes in as next PM will be pressured either way for no deal to a 2nd referendum. What ever happens, they will need to be firm with all parties including their own and not buckle under the pressure. They will need to tell the EU talks need to start again and use no deal to force that to happen. But actually be prepared to physically use no deal and not just all words no action. A strong PM is now needed. Someone like Boris. But I can't stand him and he divides opinion more than the referendum does so would be a bad choice really but I think he would make brexit happen. I don't like Mogg but I think he would be excellent as PM. I don't think he will go for the PM job though.
Perhaps if politicians actually listened, and acted upon, the issues with common sense and decency then perhaps this mess might have had a better outcome. Rather than the betterment of their people they go off on this idealistic trip which has more to do with the improvement of their own image rather than the job at hand. Co-operation should have been the order of the day right from the start and I think there are many politicians over there who need to hang their collective heads in shame for way the rest of the world sees the U.K. as nothing other than confused. Would it help if I sent Canada's best buddy, living south of the 49th, over there to help you solve all your problems? P.S. It's Donald Chump himself or it could be fake news?
I'd rather discuss football than politics, but this is a very good thread so here goes. It had to be done. It was always going to end in tears - it's been a bloody farce for 3 years under May. A serial remainer negotiating Brexit on behalf of the United Kingdom who was perceived by the Barnier/Junker/Tusk EU team as weak and exploitable. She was never the right person to take this forward. Both David Davies and Dominic Raab threw in the towel because of her insistance to compromise our position at the expense of soveriegnty - that said it all about May. Who we'll get now is anyone's guess, but at least it's bound to be someone to shake up the EU dictat comfort zone that May had buckled under. It's correct to say we have more to lose in the short term through a no deal scenario than the EU "club", but they will not be immune to the pain and it will cost them dearly. There is no way they want us to leave under those circumatances. Is there a solution? Of course there is. It's called taking the initiative that we've been brain washed into believing didn't exist. We vastly underestimate ourselves in this country. Project fear is dead and buried. Forget May, Corbyn, Cable and that self promoting Scottish tart who wants to break up the United Kingdom. Come together as an independant and outward looking United Kingdom freed of the Brussels shackles and let's accept any short term pain for the longer term gain. Being afraid of our own shadows has held back this process for far too long.
I don’t know how a change of leadership will change Brexit. The whole process is paralysed. Even with an arch-Brexiteer like Rees-Mogg in charge (I won’t say Boris, because he was Remain for years before switching sides to hurt Cameron) Parliament will have to ratify our exit - unless the Europeans kick us out of course - which they might do, but the Tories can’t simply ‘leave’ With a no deal without parliament’s approval - which they won’t get because they don’t have enough seats. Same 5h1t different leader.
They hated us so much they ended up giving us the best deal in the EU! I wouldn't let the papers influence you though in all honesty. England is not going. France isn't any less French. Italy isn't any less Italian. And you can apply that exact same logic in reverse. With no deal on the table, the EU will give us a better deal because they need the UK! With no deal on the table, the UK will give us a better deal because they need the EU! What makes you think the first one is any more valid than the second? Because that's essentially what you're saying. At the end of the day, the one with the most to lose is the one with the worse hand in negotiations. And that, without any slight bit of doubt, is the UK.
Wrong R&W. The narrow 312 - 308 majority in favour of preventing a no deal Brexit is not legally binding - it was an ammendment allowed to indicate of the feelings of the house only. Unless legislation is put in place to that effect, as things stand, then we leave on 31st October with no deal.
Basically yes if a better one than the "non Brexit" deal that May negotiated can't be reached. It's clear that as Leadsom said in her resignation interview - as leader of the House, she felt she could not present a bill that meant we effectively remained in the EU.
So, are you suggesting that all a new leader needs to do is ............. nothing? Just sit tight and wait for 31st October and ‘No Deal’ will simply happen on its own? I can’t see that being allowed tbh.
Doing nothing is an option but not a sane and responsible one. There is scope to talk again despite what Junker and Co have said.
I don’t advocate no deal, however I do think the EU knew May was weak which affected the deal they offered , I believe had David Davies for instance, or someone who at least believed in Brexit, had headed the deal we would have got a better one, but we’ll never know for sure. How on earth we get out of the mess we’re in is anyone’s guess , Parliament is the problem having a majority in favour of remain. Maybe the solution is a GE , but who’s to say that would change anything.
Ok but why is the ‘indicative but not binding’ 312 to 308 vote preventing no-dea,l to be ignored, but the also ‘indicative but not binding’ referendum is to be honoured at all costs? Democracy is eating itself.
Because the latter was a vote of THE PEOPLE, whereas the former was not. but rather a vote by the people charged to carry out the will of THE PEOPLE , refusing to do do so.
