Off Topic Politics Thread

[Onionman]

It's been mentioned in Austria, Denmark and holland to name a few. How have they been difficult?..........We know surely that the UK not trading with them is going to put a lot of their workers out of a job just as it will us .........yet they have not been forthcoming with many ideas as to ideas how things could work. Germany seems to be the main one complaining about the EU's stance on our leaving without agreement.

This will come as a surprise to you (as you no dount read UK-based media) but the decision to offer the UK a customs union in order to resolve the Irish border issue is a massive, truly massive, gragantuan, astounding free gift. Nothing asked in return for it. It caused the closest thing to an argument within the EU because they were giving something massive away. That's the EU bending over backwards to help.

You will also be surprised to find out that the negotiations very much went along the following route:

EU: What do you want?
UK: Well, we have these red lines here, no Freedom of Movement, no change at the Irish border, etc, etc
EU: OK, here's a deal that satisfies all your requirements
UK: But that's not fair

Vin

 

[Beddy]

This will come as a surprise to you (as you no dount read UK-based media) but the decision to offer the UK a customs union in order to resolve the Irish border issue is a massive, truly massive, gragantuan, astounding free gift. Nothing asked in return for it. It caused the closest thing to an argument within the EU because they were giving something massive away. That's the EU bending over backwards to help.

You will also be surprised to find out that the negotiations very much went along the following route:

EU: What do you want?
UK: Well, we have these red lines here, no Freedom of Movement, no change at the Irish border, etc, etc
EU: OK, here's a deal that satisfies all your requirements
UK: But that's not fair

Vin

Fair enough Vin.......but as I state the people I met.......(although not all granted) Seem to think or argue the EU could have been even more flexible. We certainly haven't helped ourselves thats for sure. Im not sure they are giving much away re the borders are they.......leaving them pretty well the same as????
Do I take it from your comments then you think Parliament should take the offer they have made?

 

[VocalMinority]

Fair enough Vin.......but as I state the people I met.......(although not all granted) Seem to think or argue the EU could have been even more flexible. We certainly haven't helped ourselves thats for sure. Im not sure they are giving much away re the borders are they.......leaving them pretty well the same as????
Do I take it from your comments then you think Parliament should take the offer they have made?

What do you think we should do with the border?

Hard border that violates the good Friday agreement? (This is no deal as Ireland would veto it)
Hard border in the middle of the UK between NI and the rest?
Or a soft Brexit that gives EU control over the border and requires us to trust EU governments to carry out proper checks before the goods are transported?


My guess is you prefer the 3rd but these are the options we have and EU haven't blocked us from any.


Edit: sorry I missed out a customs union which means we don't need a border.

 

[StJabbo]

http://www.thespaceacademy.org/2019...3BMx5yDbGGEm4vI1rzp-viqR9FFLyaA0#.XNKhE44zbIU
There's large (minority) populations in the UK, not always, but often linked, called "deniers" and "brexiteers". These are unfortunate people who refuse to admit the truth of a concept or proposition that is supported by the majority of scientific, financial or historical evidence. They can be identified by the media they read or quote, including but not limited to. The mail, express and telegraph newspapers plus any news corp outlet. They are likely to exclaim "it's not happening", "leave means leave" and "it was a democratic vote" amongst the most used bleats. They are a diminishing usually older group amongst the population who are probably beyond help, best ignored rather than pitied. (Bunch of W️s)
Jab

 

[Beddy]

What do you think we should do with the border?

Hard border that violates the good Friday agreement? (This is no deal as Ireland would veto it)
Hard border in the middle of the UK between NI and the rest?
Or a soft Brexit that gives EU control over the border and requires us to trust EU governments to carry out proper checks before the goods are transported?


My guess is you prefer the 3rd but these are the options we have and EU haven't blocked us from any.

Personally I don't have a problem with the Border situation as I've mentioned more than once.......our parliament seems to for what ever reason.........All I have mentioned is my discussions with business men.............

 

[VocalMinority]

Personally I don't have a problem with the Border situation as I've mentioned more than once.......our parliament seems to for what ever reason.........All I have mentioned is my discussions with business men.............

I thought you said you didn't trust EU countries? But you're fine with them having unilateral control of custom checks for goods entering our country?

Or a customs union where EU countries make the rules and we just follow?

Or a hard border that may results in a restart of the troubles and thousands of people dieing?


Its not really an issue where we can be flippant...

 

[Beddy]

I thought you said you didn't trust EU countries? But you're fine with them having unilateral control of custom checks for goods entering our country?

My distrust of the EU has nothing to do with border controls.......

 

[Onionman]

Fair enough Vin.......but as I state the people I met.......(although not all granted) Seem to think or argue the EU could have been even more flexible. We certainly haven't helped ourselves thats for sure. Im not sure they are giving much away re the borders are they.......leaving them pretty well the same as????
Do I take it from your comments then you think Parliament should take the offer they have made?

No. It's awful. But not because of what the EU's done.

So, for example, when our immigration-obsessed PM said we wouldn't accept Freedom of Movement she by default guaranteed no access to the Single Market. *I* knew that, as would have her advisors. To say it's the EU's fault is blatant lying.

Your side are spinning this as the 'evil EU' when the utterly dire deal is a direct result of our PM's negotiation starting points.

No, the deal's awful. It's beyond awful. Before your Leave pals changed the narrative post-referendum, ending up with only a customs union with the EU was seen as a very hard Brexit.

I suspect the leaders of companies in the EU are massively more peed off with the UK government than their own.

Vin

 

[VocalMinority]

My distrust of the EU has nothing to do with border controls.......

Trust in pretty much every EU institutions affects border control policy... Just about every part of the EU from the ECJ to creating individual policies like automated car design or core principles like freedom of movement are heavily involved in border control policy.

When we leave we'll probably have to trust in them even more as we'll not have law to back us up. Like the EU trying to guarantee the backstop being temporary.

 

[Onionman]

Must say, Beddy, I'm interested that in our Brexit discussions on here you've hinted at things going on amongst the leaders of (the white bits of) the Commonwealth where you stated peoples' opinions but couldn't mention names. You hint at dark things going on (that you can't discuss) across various governments. You tell us there are 'reasons' you dislike the EU that you can't tell us. Now you're meeting CEOs across Europe whose names you have forgotten.

Exactly whom do you work for, Mr Bond?

Vin

 

[ImpSaint]

Have the LibDems, CUK or any other remainers made a statement yet criticising Erdogan for demanding March's vote be re-run because of "irregularities" and because it was so close?

 

[StJabbo]

Have the LibDems, CUK or any other remainers made a statement yet criticising Erdogan for demanding March's vote be re-run because of "irregularities" and because it was so close?

Do your own research, I couldn't give a flyer about that. I'm more concerned with the overseas postal vote ballot papers being sent and returned within the two week timescale. I'm told by the Electoral Services Support Officer at South Oxfordshire & Vale of White Horse District Councils where I'm registered that they are being posted today which should mean my vote will count albeit using a costly tracking priority postal service to return. Those further afield than The Netherlands/Europe will have a bigger problem.

Jab

 

[Beddy]

Must say, Beddy, I'm interested that in our Brexit discussions on here you've hinted at things going on amongst the leaders of (the white bits of) the Commonwealth where you stated peoples' opinions but couldn't mention names. You hint at dark things going on (that you can't discuss) across various governments. You tell us there are 'reasons' you dislike the EU that you can't tell us. Now you're meeting CEOs across Europe whose names you have forgotten.

Exactly whom do you work for, Mr Bond?

Vin

There are very good reasons why I dislike the EU.........There are also very good reasons why I won't discuss them.
I have met and do meet CEO's of different European companies although not so often as I once did. I don't always remember some of their names or even if I do I'm not sure they would thank me for bandying their name about on a football Forum. I'm sorry if I intrigue you Vin. I wasn't aware I had to prove anything to you or anyone else regarding my opinions of the EU.

 

[rednright]

Good to see the debate on here is still ragingwith all the normal put downs....could be Stormont. At least we can all agree the one good thing to come out of this are some exciting new party options to vote for.

 

[fatletiss]

There are very good reasons why I dislike the EU.........There are also very good reasons why I won't discuss them.
I have met and do meet CEO's of different European companies although not so often as I once did. I don't always remember some of their names or even if I do I'm not sure they would thank me for bandying their name about on a football Forum. I'm sorry if I intrigue you Vin. I wasn't aware I had to prove anything to you or anyone else regarding my opinions of the EU.

To be fair Neddy, it’s a little difficult to engage or take your posts on this topic with any credence when you say things like your underlined bit above... it leaves no room for discussion and makes me wonder why you post it if there is nothing you feel you can open up on without giving any personal details away, or offer as a reason.

It’s fair enough having and posting your view but you do keep joining in the conversation and discussions on by saying, “I don’t like them.”

It’s a bit like saying, “Just because.”

 

[Onionman]

There are very good reasons why I dislike the EU.........There are also very good reasons why I won't discuss them.
I have met and do meet CEO's of different European companies although not so often as I once did. I don't always remember some of their names or even if I do I'm not sure they would thank me for bandying their name about on a football Forum. I'm sorry if I intrigue you Vin. I wasn't aware I had to prove anything to you or anyone else regarding my opinions of the EU.

I can assure you that I know with complete certainty that our future if we remain in the EU will be better than anyone could ever have imagined. We'll be so rich we'll have streets paved (literally) with gold by 2025. I know this because of conversations with terribly important people in the know that I can't possibly discuss.

It's an unarguable position and not even worth the effort of typing it out. I reserve the right to point out specious nonsense like that.

Vin

 

[Beddy]

To be fair Neddy, it’s a little difficult to engage or take your posts on this topic with any credence when you say things like your underlined bit above... it leaves no room for discussion and makes me wonder why you post it if there is nothing you feel you can open up on without giving any personal details away, or offer as a reason.

It’s fair enough having and posting your view but you do keep joining in the conversation and discussions on by saying, “I don’t like them.”

It’s a bit like saying, “Just because.”

I'm so sorry, I will not discuss my reasons.........But trust me when I say I have very good reasons. Why is that so difficult to understand? My reasons are very, very personal as I have said on a number of occasions.
I agree in the very short term we would be better off staying in the union. However not so in the longer Term. I think we would be better off outside. I would accept the original trade agreement made in the 70s if I had to as I did at the time. Thats my opinion and no amount of goading or insults from others will change my mind!!

 

[TheSecondStain]

Beddy, I have to agree with FLT and Vin. Anything you post on your personal feelings towards Brexit and the EU is totally subjective and without foundation unless you qualify it with something firm at least to hang your hat on. For example, for all the CEOs you spoke to having reservations about the EU, I'm sure we could find the counter argument from just as many other CEOs. Means very little without substance.

The people qualified to give an opinion, that is the independent experts who often advise governments said, pretty much to a single person, 'don't leave the European Union'. The counter argument to that was 'don't believe the experts'. That's like saying, don't ask a rocket engineer for an opinion on the performance of a particular rocket, but get a botanist's opinion instead.

 

[Beddy]

I can assure you that I know with complete certainty that our future if we remain in the EU will be better than anyone could ever have imagined. We'll be so rich we'll have streets paved (literally) with gold by 2025. I know this because of conversations with terribly important people in the know that I can't possibly discuss.

It's an unarguable position and not even worth the effort of typing it out. I reserve the right to point out specious nonsense like that.

Vin

Vin I take exception to that......You believe as you say with complete certainty of our future in the EU. Well all I've got to say is your Chrystal ball says a lot different to mine. I am neither speculating nor Lying about the people I meet or discussions I have held with the "terribly important people" to quote you. I am sorry if that irks you for some reason. All I can say is I have pretty well done little else in the last few weeks while discussing with Foreigners including Europeans, Americans, Australians, Japanese and yes even Chinese about Brexit. (Oh I forgot the Koreans) All pretty well think we have made a mess of the negotiations, and the possible out come. All of which I could probably prove if there was really a need. No Vin I am not a lier nor do I invent things I have no need to.

 

[VocalMinority]

My guess as to the reasons the CEO's are unhappy is simply not being able to plan. I've said before that I would be putting pressure on EU leaders if I was a EU company. My companies official statement is we have contingencies but will carry on until we know what the effects will be.


I can't even begin to imagine what a very person reason that means we will be better off outside the EU in the long term could be.


Either way I believe the last 10000 years of human development from cavemen to tribes, to city states like Greece, to petty kingdoms like Wessex to feudal kingdoms like England to modern government points to the direction we should be moving in.

Creating the legal framework for cooperation is key for a prosperous future long term imo, as it has always been.

I have a very hard time believing that we just happen to be at the perfect size now after thousands of years of political growth.

And I can't see a better option to achieve this for us than the EU.