garysfc
Well-Known Member
Sorry, it might be a bit overindulgent for the diplomat but it’s probably a good £ investment.
Off Topic Politics Thread
- Thread starter ChilcoSaint
- Start date
Well i was wrong, middle ground options got the most support. Customs union closest to a majority, though a referendum had the highest support.
I'm sure they just donated out of the goodness off their hearts. Nothing to do with wanting to secure land.
I'm not saying you have to bribe anybody. You are a housing association aren't you, not a property developer "exploiting" the need for affordable homes situation to secure state land to build their homes, skirt around the "moral" issues, in prime property locations to make a mint.
JRM is gambling and playing games like the rest of them.
The EU don't want the deal signed, they showed that today when it looked like it might now be and they suddenly all came out with their revocation stuff.
The ERG don't want the deal, they either had legal advice they could ignore it and with May gone go in a different direction or they were hedging their bets.
Most of the house and the bigwigs at the EU are gambling on stinking deal being turned down, delayed for ages and eventual revocation. They will be as much to blame IF it ends up as no deal.
And Corbyn just gambles on anything because he wants out but can't say it.
The only one that wants the deal is May. The EU and everyone else does not want the deal for various different reasons. The ones happy to agree to the deal in the Tory party think they can change it once done.
You're wrong on the numbers. If May gets her party onside then minus the DUP + 20 labour and eh'll get it through. She would need all of her party minus the remain rebels though, so all the ERG. In effect she replaces her -10 remain and -10 DUP with 20 Labour + the 1 Lib Dem that voted for it.
You make a fair point on the numbers but I’m not sure there’s enough, yet. There’s a few more twists yet!!
Or there is a lot of legal advice saying the "deal" is not enforceable or easy to get out of!!! A bit like the Paris Treaty and TPP for Trump!!!
We just have to face it that politicians (and play politicians in your case) are not in this for the real. They jsut do whatever they want to do, who cares about treaties or "deals."
I think people have to remember that this is just the withdrawal agreement. It doesn't have anything to do with how we move onward and thus if we sign the WA, then from that point the EU "could" play hardball all the way and thus render the WA useless because they don't ever get to anywhere down the road on an FTA or a lighter actual trade agreement.
So at that point.........WA passed or not, the UK would be able to (I suppose) to pull out blaming the other side for zero progress.
Stop blaming the ERG or the Tories. Blame them all. They are all playing games, none of them are actually saying what they really want. All those people's vote "respect the referendumers" really want to try and delay until someone revokes (even if a second ref doesn't revoke.)
They are all troughers on the make.s Vote them all out for indies next time round (and not TIG "indies.")
314 Tories at the moment. Make that 304 without the remain rebels. +22 wins a majority. Less if any of the opposite side abstain.
Ignoring public opinion on having a referendum, would any of you hard brexiteers take a referendum in the belief that no deal is the most popular option with the public and it would get you what you want, or are you afraid that remain is the most popular and feel you need to support soft brexit in order to have any brexit at all?
The problem here is that if you asked me and I thought that the same turnout would attend then I would accept a no deal vs remain referendum and I would expect no deal to win!!!
The elephant in the room is that IF the last referendum is ignored then a smaller but still quite large (in the circumstances) amount of those who voted leave will refuse to vote. A vast amount hat couldn't be arsed last time will vote. Remain will win 80:20 on half the turnout, which will then leave us in absolute sh1tstorm territory because there would be a backlash in one way or another. Maybe civil unrest, maybe people looking the other way as they vote for extreme options.
Just look at the BS around this issue at the moment. This morning it was widely publicised (with the usual press leakings from Damian Collins) that they were holding Dominic Cummings in contempt. Fair enough............and then Dominic Cummings told his story in the Spectator. That he was asked to attend and he agreed. Damian Collins wanting the big press bit then decided to summon him even though he had agreed and Cummings then got antsy because Collins was trying to grandstand.
Then further on he was asked again to attend to which he said he would attend if everyone was under oath...............to which Collins said "we can't do that." Asked again later and was given the same reply. "Only if everybody is under oath." So Collins keeps on jumping on the media to grandstand about something where Cummings has agreed at each stage and where the "inquisitioner" refuses that everybody should be telling the truth!!!
This is where we are!!! And we believe that remain's "non collaboration" was not the same as Leave's "collaboration."
It is absolutely ridiculous and then people wonder why there is this "establishment vs US" sentiment? Because they protect everything in their favour and admonish everything that attacks their own cause.
We bellitle Trump for claiming more than turned up to his do yet we have the usual Adonis, Owen Jones and today Tusk repeating that 1,000,000 people marched for the "people's vote" despite FullFact (which some have used against me if they think I am not informed of the facts" saying it was between 300,000 and 400,000. This after they claimed 750,000 last time and it being stated as being 250,000 by fact checkers.
The whole argument is about having a go at the other, accusing them of lying, belittling them...............and then them saying that you are vicious, lie and belittle you.
"Look at Farages's 200 people, compared to our million". These people are marching for 15 days all the way down the country. O~f course a million aren;t going to do that march. Not even the 3-400,000 that were actually in London. A nice weekend Jolly will always attract more. It will also attract more than Farage's lot when they reach London whatever Sunday it is because a lot of those that might want to support it won't because Owen Jones will be out with his 1,000 "anti" protestors (claiming 15,000) screaming bile in people's faces.
So yes. Personally I wouldn't be bothered about a vote but lots will not bother, they will take other actions or just give up on voting at all. So the biggest mandate given the country would be reversed by one of the smallest. That will not go down well.
But hey, we're gonna build a wall and starve the South
The only reason for remainers to fear a no deal vs remain referendum is because IF they allowed no deal on that paper it might reverse the current decision of leavers not to vote!!! The narrative you hear on the tellybox and twitter is not the reality and no deal consistently gets more support than a second referendum in polls. And it has been noted that support for a second referendum is significantly lower when remain is the other option on the quesiton!!!
Be careful what you wish for. It will either be a rout on a small turnout or it will be defeated because people do not fear no deal and never did!!!
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They’re all twisting and turning and conniving to get the best for themselves. It makes me sick. Whatever happens (and I think May’s deal is awful and a No Deal is a disaster) I will never vote for one of the “main” parties again. I seriously hope the electorate take a long hard look at the idiots in parliament and vote a load of them out at the next election. Sadly, the damage to the U.K. has been done and will make the country a more divisive, sectarian, extremist one, and I can see (pessimisticly) the rise of UKIP and similar extreme parties, as the majority of the electorate will follow whatever garbage the media tell them.
Oh for a middle of the road, social caring party who would tax the right people and companies enough, support the N.H.S. and actually help those unfortunate enough to need it.
It’ll never happen though - most politicians are just in it for themselves in my opinion
Oh for a middle of the road, social caring party who would tax the right people and companies enough, support the N.H.S. and actually help those unfortunate enough to need it.
It’ll never happen though - most politicians are just in it for themselves in my opinion
The problem here is that if you asked me and I thought that the same turnout would attend then I would accept a no deal vs remain referendum and I would expect it to win!!!
The elephant in the room is that IF the last referendum is ignored then a vast amount of those who voted leave will refuse to vote. A vast amount hat couldn;t be arsed last time will vote. Remain will win 80:20 on half the turnout, which will then leave us in absolute sh1tstorm territory because there would be a backlash in one way or another. Maybe civil unrest, maybe people looking the other way as they vote for extreme options.
Just look at the BS around this issue at the moment. This morning it was widely publicised (with the usual press leakings from Damian Collins) that they were holding Dominic Cummings in contempt. Fair enough............and then Dominic Cummings told his story in the Spectator. That he was asked to attend and he agreed. Damian Collins wanting the big press bit then decided to summon him even though he had agreed and Cummings then got antsy because Collins was trying to grandstand.
Then further on he was asked again to attend to which he said he would attend if everyone was under oath...............to which Collins said "we can't do that." Asked again later and was given the same reply. "Only if everybody is under oath." So Collins keeps on jumping on the media to grandstand about something where Cummings has agreed at each stage and where the "inquisitioner" refuses that everybody should be telling the truth!!!
This is where we are!!! And we believe that remain's "non collaboration" was not the same as Leave's "collaboration."
It is absolutely ridiculous and then people wonder why there is this "establishment vs US" sentiment? Because they protect everything in their favour and admonish everything that attacks their own cause.
We bellitle Trump for claiming more than turned up to his do yet we have the usual Adonis, Owen Jones and today Tusk repeating that 1,000,000 people marched for the "people's vote" despite FullFact (which some have used against me if they think I am not informed of the facts" saying it was between 300,000 and 400,000. This after they claimed 750,000 last time and it being stated as being 250,000 by fact checkers.
The whole argument is about having a go at the other, accusing them of lying, belittling them...............and then them saying that you are vicious, lie and belittle you.
"Look at Farages's 200 people, compared to our million". These people are marching for 15 days all the way down the country. O~f course a million aren;t going to do that march. Not even the 3-400,000 that were actually in London. A nice weekend Jolly will always attract more. It will also attract more than Farage's lot when they reach London whatever Sunday it is because a lot of those that might want to support it won't because Owen Jones will be out with his 1,000 "anti" protestors (claiming 15,000) screaming bile in people's faces.
So yes. Personally I wouldn't be bothered about a vote but lots will not bother, they will take other actions or just give up on voting at all. So the biggest mandate given the country would be reversed by one of the smallest. That will not go down well.
But hey, we're gonna build a wall and starve the South
The problem here is that if you asked me and I thought that the same turnout would attend then I would accept a no deal vs remain referendum and I would expect it to win!!!
The elephant in the room is that IF the last referendum is ignored then a vast amount of those who voted leave will refuse to vote. A vast amount hat couldn;t be arsed last time will vote. Remain will win 80:20 on half the turnout, which will then leave us in absolute sh1tstorm territory because there would be a backlash in one way or another. Maybe civil unrest, maybe people looking the other way as they vote for extreme options.
Just look at the BS around this issue at the moment. This morning it was widely publicised (with the usual press leakings from Damian Collins) that they were holding Dominic Cummings in contempt. Fair enough............and then Dominic Cummings told his story in the Spectator. That he was asked to attend and he agreed. Damian Collins wanting the big press bit then decided to summon him even though he had agreed and Cummings then got antsy because Collins was trying to grandstand.
Then further on he was asked again to attend to which he said he would attend if everyone was under oath...............to which Collins said "we can't do that." Asked again later and was given the same reply. "Only if everybody is under oath." So Collins keeps on jumping on the media to grandstand about something where Cummings has agreed at each stage and where the "inquisitioner" refuses that everybody should be telling the truth!!!
This is where we are!!! And we believe that remain's "non collaboration" was not the same as Leave's "collaboration."
It is absolutely ridiculous and then people wonder why there is this "establishment vs US" sentiment? Because they protect everything in their favour and admonish everything that attacks their own cause.
We bellitle Trump for claiming more than turned up to his do yet we have the usual Adonis, Owen Jones and today Tusk repeating that 1,000,000 people marched for the "people's vote" despite FullFact (which some have used against me if they think I am not informed of the facts" saying it was between 300,000 and 400,000. This after they claimed 750,000 last time and it being stated as being 250,000 by fact checkers.
The whole argument is about having a go at the other, accusing them of lying, belittling them...............and then them saying that you are vicious, lie and belittle you.
"Look at Farages's 200 people, compared to our million". These people are marching for 15 days all the way down the country. O~f course a million aren;t going to do that march. Not even the 3-400,000 that were actually in London. A nice weekend Jolly will always attract more. It will also attract more than Farage's lot when they reach London whatever Sunday it is because a lot of those that might want to support it won't because Owen Jones will be out with his 1,000 "anti" protestors (claiming 15,000) screaming bile in people's faces.
So yes. Personally I wouldn't be bothered about a vote but lots will not bother, they will take other actions or just give up on voting at all. So the biggest mandate given the country would be reversed by one of the smallest. That will not go down well.
But hey, we're gonna build a wall and starve the South
There were a lot more people than 300-400,000, Imps. The figure I saw from the police was “well in excess of 1 million” and the poor bastards who were conned by Fromage to waste their time marching must be well pissed off.
I find it interesting also that there were threats of “national unrest” if the march last weekend went ahead and yet there were no reported incidents. I bet if there’d been a few hundred rabid Leave marchers they’d have caused the usual trouble.
This is the problem - this whole thing has divided the country and allowed the rise of extremism. It’s such a great shame and I think the Tories are likely to pay for it significantly in years to come. Unfortunately we have an opposition Labour Party led by an even more ardent Brexiteer and are likely to have even more issues with them when they get in.
Nothing to so with "what the media tell them." You said it in your first statement where you said you would never vote for one of the main parties again. Neither will leavers!!! Yes they might vote for UKIP or other "extreme" parties but for the same reasons you won;t vote for the LibLabCon, not because of what the media tell them. If you hadn't noticed they don't believe the media. Why would they vote for extreme parties because of what the media tell them?
Personally I am waiting for something else other than UKIP because they have gone a bit mad. SDP or Brexit Party IF they put reps up.
The police do not do these assessments anymore.
https://fullfact.org/europe/peoples-vote-march-count/
and the reason there is not so much trouble at left wing OR remain marches is because right wingers don;t do "counter protests." If right wing OR leave marches are done then there are counter protests with Owen Jones live on his phone stream beaming the front row of his "15,000 strong" counter protest. Then the problems start.
The only right thing in your post is that the Tories are now sunk. They will put another remainer in. They won't risk it going to the members and like myself many members have already cancelled the recurring membership fee. Mine ends in September. The DD cancelled so it won't renew.
Labour will get in because they have a hardcore of madfolk that will get them over the line on 20ish% against a vast array of other candidates in each election. Maybe a high turnout in the election but reduced Labour vote against a wiped out "other" vote.
This is well worth a read from Dominic Cummings. He lays into the ERG heavily too!!!
https://dominiccummings.com
https://dominiccummings.com
I consider myself a veteran of marches through London, having been on in excess of 20 or so over the last nearly 50 years, from protests over student grants (what are they, Grandad?) to CND marches, to the Iraq War demo, and culminating in Saturday’s completely peaceful mass expression of the Will of the People. Until Saturday, the 2003 march against Blair’s war was the biggest by far, and judging by a combination of police estimates and visual impressions, there were well over a million there. If anything, my impression of Saturday was that it was at least as big as 2003, and the police, for once, actually back that view up. I have no issue with Rees-Mogg trying to belittle the event, or sycophants like Imps quoting him, that’s to be xoected, but in the words of Max Boyce:
I know, ‘cos I was there.
So in short, if we had a referendum the skeptics would be defeated by their own skepticismThe problem here is that if you asked me and I thought that the same turnout would attend then I would accept a no deal vs remain referendum and I would expect no deal to win!!!
The elephant in the room is that IF the last referendum is ignored then a smaller but still quite large (in the circumstances) amount of those who voted leave will refuse to vote. A vast amount hat couldn't be arsed last time will vote. Remain will win 80:20 on half the turnout, which will then leave us in absolute sh1tstorm territory because there would be a backlash in one way or another. Maybe civil unrest, maybe people looking the other way as they vote for extreme options.
Just look at the BS around this issue at the moment. This morning it was widely publicised (with the usual press leakings from Damian Collins) that they were holding Dominic Cummings in contempt. Fair enough............and then Dominic Cummings told his story in the Spectator. That he was asked to attend and he agreed. Damian Collins wanting the big press bit then decided to summon him even though he had agreed and Cummings then got antsy because Collins was trying to grandstand.
Then further on he was asked again to attend to which he said he would attend if everyone was under oath...............to which Collins said "we can't do that." Asked again later and was given the same reply. "Only if everybody is under oath." So Collins keeps on jumping on the media to grandstand about something where Cummings has agreed at each stage and where the "inquisitioner" refuses that everybody should be telling the truth!!!
This is where we are!!! And we believe that remain's "non collaboration" was not the same as Leave's "collaboration."
It is absolutely ridiculous and then people wonder why there is this "establishment vs US" sentiment? Because they protect everything in their favour and admonish everything that attacks their own cause.
We bellitle Trump for claiming more than turned up to his do yet we have the usual Adonis, Owen Jones and today Tusk repeating that 1,000,000 people marched for the "people's vote" despite FullFact (which some have used against me if they think I am not informed of the facts" saying it was between 300,000 and 400,000. This after they claimed 750,000 last time and it being stated as being 250,000 by fact checkers.
The whole argument is about having a go at the other, accusing them of lying, belittling them...............and then them saying that you are vicious, lie and belittle you.
"Look at Farages's 200 people, compared to our million". These people are marching for 15 days all the way down the country. O~f course a million aren;t going to do that march. Not even the 3-400,000 that were actually in London. A nice weekend Jolly will always attract more. It will also attract more than Farage's lot when they reach London whatever Sunday it is because a lot of those that might want to support it won't because Owen Jones will be out with his 1,000 "anti" protestors (claiming 15,000) screaming bile in people's faces.
So yes. Personally I wouldn't be bothered about a vote but lots will not bother, they will take other actions or just give up on voting at all. So the biggest mandate given the country would be reversed by one of the smallest. That will not go down well.
But hey, we're gonna build a wall and starve the South
The only reason for remainers to fear a no deal vs remain referendum is because IF they allowed no deal on that paper it might reverse the current decision of leavers not to vote!!! The narrative you hear on the tellybox and twitter is not the reality and no deal consistently gets more support than a second referendum in polls. And it has been noted that support for a second referendum is significantly lower when remain is the other option on the quesiton!!!
Be careful what you wish for. It will either be a rout on a small turnout or it will be defeated because people do not fear no deal and never did!!!
. I like the irony in that.
Is it no wonder the people are divided over Brexit......our MPs certainly are.........and they are the ones supposedly running our country!!! If they can’t come out with something positive how on earth can they expect the general public to support their findings........which ever way it goes from now on.
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